Voltage on hose bib...

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stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
Complaint of child receiving shock when touching hose bib...
IMAG0174.jpg

This voltage increased as we started turning appliances on in the house, the voltage read way over 25 volts at one point.
 

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
I'm confused by your picture. I see both probes touching the hose bib. What did you use as a reference point?

Is this copper plumbing with continuity all the way back to the meter? What kind of current do you have on the GEC?
 
Get the POCO out immediately!

This is a very dangerous situation and could seriously hurt or even kill somebody.

As Bob says, it's almost certain to be a bad neutral connection on the POCO side, and the grounding electrode connection is carrying the neutral current.

I've seen a plumber get a nasty shock from this problem.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
You should be checking between the grounding and Earth, go to the meter and check between the meter can and earth stay few feet away from the grounding electrode with the Earth probe, if you have this voltage then its ahead of the service and POCO needs to be called, if you don't its between the meter and service disconnect or panel where the MBJ is installed.
If you have a pad mounted transformer do this same test between the transformer case and Earth, if you have this voltage then you have lost the primary neutral to the transformer and it can be a dangerous situation and POCO needs to treat it as an emergency, but even the loss of the secondary neutral can cause a fire and damage electronics so I would in both cases kill the main until the POCO can repair.
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
Hehe, I know its a bad neutral, already called the poco, the reason you see two probes on the hose bib is because i was using two meters at once, just referencing the meters... sorry for the confusion.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If problem is on secondary neutral you should also have unbalanced voltages between L1 and N and L2 and N. If these voltages remain well balanced, then that would be another sign that it is not the secondary that has the problem. Also check for voltage at sill cock with main turned off.
 

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
Last one we had like this the open neutral was on the house next door.
When the plumber cut the pipe on the house we we're working on. The lights in the house next door went off. ;)
 

hurk27

Senior Member
The problem with voltage on the grounding is identifying where it is coming from, even a house next door shouldn't raise the voltage of this house if the neutral connections are good, but one connection will, primary neutral to the transformer.

To find this is not that hard, first to distinguish which one we rule out the secondary neutral we do this by forcing a unbalance panel, turn off the main turn off all two pole breakers, now turn off all A or B leg breakers but only one or the other preferably the side with the most load, use a clamp on meter to find this before you turn off the single poles, check the voltage on the side left on, it will read lower then normal much lower in most cases, now check the voltage from the grounding to Earth, if it now has a higher voltage then you have a bad or lost the neutral between the transformer and the house service, if it is lower then you have a bad connection on the primary neutral.

Do's and Do nots!!!!

DO tell everyone on site including children to not touch anything grounded while running these test!!!! make sure you have someone to keep them clear, as serious shock hazards can exist on the grounding.

DO NOT remove any grounding to electrode connection's!!! as you might find your holding the primary voltage in your hand if you live to tell about it.

In all cases treat the grounding as hot until this is resolved as it can kill!!!:eek:

A short cut to all this is to get the POCO to take an amprage reading on the primary neutral at the transformer, if it is 0 then there is the problem, but it has to be taken between the transformer and the MGN (power line neutral) other wise they will read the flow from the house grounding.
 
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stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
Luckily this is a weekenders house, so hopefully meeting POCO this morning, will post back tonight with my findings, but im going with primary neutral issues, its all underground, and my guess is its direct burial...
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
update...

update...

Went back today, i turned on everything I could in the house, this raised the hose bib voltage considerably, but I had no issues in the panel, the voltages stayed the same, even with the panel unbalanced the voltage remained the same, so I ask, what gives? Primary neutral at the transformer? How come I cant get the lights in the house to dim like a normal lost/bad neutral?

attachment.php

At transformer pad
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At meter location, its a pedestal service
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At hose bib
 
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Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
Even though the floating neutral bandwagon had quite a few people on-board, I stayed silent because it was not a foregone conclusion.

The original 2 questions I asked: Is the plumbing contiguous from the bib to the meter? Have you put an ammeter on the GEC (including the incoming water line)?

That was several days ago and I don't recall where I was going with them, but I know that I asked them for a reason. It will come to me when we see the answers and think about this some more.

Edit: Oh, I don't have the exact answer yet, but I do recall that my thoughts were that this was a floating ground, not a floating neutral.
 
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stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
Even though the floating neutral bandwagon had quite a few people on-board, I stayed silent because it was not a foregone conclusion.

The original 2 questions I asked: Is the plumbing contiguous from the bib to the meter? Have you put an ammeter on the GEC (including the incoming water line)?

That was several days ago and I don't recall where I was going with them, but I know that I asked them for a reason. It will come to me when we see the answers and think about this some more.

Edit: Oh, I don't have the exact answer yet, but I do recall that my thoughts were that this was a floating ground, not a floating neutral.

yeah, i get zero amps on the GEC and water pipe.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Even though the floating neutral bandwagon had quite a few people on-board, I stayed silent because it was not a foregone conclusion.

I am certainly interested in what other cause of this you have in mind.

You have a voltage between the hose bib and earth that varies with the load in the building.

Do you have another the explanation?

The original 2 questions I asked: Is the plumbing contiguous from the bib to the meter? Have you put an ammeter on the GEC (including the incoming water line)?

That was several days ago and I don't recall where I was going with them, but I know that I asked them for a reason. It will come to me when we see the answers and think about this some more.

Well as long as you are sure. :lol:
 

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
yeah, i get zero amps on the GEC and water pipe.
Well that makes it a lot easier, because even on a perfect system, you should be seeing some current on the ground. You have an open ground somewhere within the residence upstream from where you measured this zero current. The fact that it is zero means it is the entire house/panel, and not just the hose bib. Look for a break between the water meter/ground rod and the main panel. Also, confirm that you even have a Ground-to-neutral bond in the panel.

My instincts tell me that the grounding system is totally floating, and that raises questions about both the GEC and the main bond.
 
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