water pipe cut off

[iwire]

Again you are talking about the utility side of the water system

And this has to do with this conversation how?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Again you are talking about the utility side of the water system

In my area the utility side of the water system normally enters the building as the water meter is inside, but what does that have to do with anything. There are a couple of water utilities that used a dielectric fitting just outside of the building to isolate thier piping from the electrical system. That is rare around here now as most have switched to non-metallic mains.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

and those water pipes are never present at the building they are installed by the plumbing contractor

The purpose of the words "present at the building" is to require the use of electrodes that are not "made" electrodes no matter how they got there.
The only issue in this thread is exactly what does "present at the building" mean. I have given my defintion a number of times, but you have never provided yours.

 

[jwelectric]

An old building is being renovated to a small convenience store. Due to the parking lot the service is being moved to the opposite end of the building.

This old building had air terminals that were connected to a #2 ground ring that circled the building and was connected to the outside service panel which the owner has demolished as it is to be moved. He cut the conductor from the service to the ground ring some feet from the building.
A new metal roof has been installed and the air terminals removed along with all the grounding conductors to the ring which were cut several feet from the building and removed. The inspection department has records of the inspection of the air terminals and the ring.

In this small jurisdiction there is one code official that does all five trades, building, mechanical, plumbing, electrical, and fire. He has been here forever and was the one who inspected the air terminal installation some years ago.

When the new service is installed will it be required to connect to this existing ground ring? Based on this thread this existing ring is NOT present at the building but somewhere out there in the yard therefore not required to be used.

If you were the electrical inspector what would you say?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

An old building is being renovated to a small convenience store. Due to the parking lot the service is being moved to the opposite end of the building.

This old building had air terminals that were connected to a #2 ground ring that circled the building and was connected to the outside service panel which the owner has demolished as it is to be moved. He cut the conductor from the service to the ground ring some feet from the building.
A new metal roof has been installed and the air terminals removed along with all the grounding conductors to the ring which were cut several feet from the building and removed. The inspection department has records of the inspection of the air terminals and the ring.

In this small jurisdiction there is one code official that does all five trades, building, mechanical, plumbing, electrical, and fire. He has been here forever and was the one who inspected the air terminal installation some years ago.

When the new service is installed will it be required to connect to this existing ground ring? Based on this thread this existing ring is NOT present at the building but somewhere out there in the yard therefore not required to be used.

If you were the electrical inspector what would you say?

Mike,
You are great with twisting things around and never giving a real answer. What is your definition of "present at the building"????????????????

 

[jwelectric]

Don I have answered this more than once so please read slowly and carefully.

From the point of supply by the utility or from the well that is supplying water to the building is present at the building.

Show me language that says anything different.

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.


Where does it say that the pipe must enter the building in order to be present at the building?

250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.

It clearly states that any of the first 7 that are present at each building and at least six of these does not enter the building at all. By your definition they are not present.

Now what about the ground ring above

 

[infinity]

Don I have answered this more than once so please read slowly and carefully.

From the point of supply by the utility or from the well that is supplying water to the building is present at the building.

Show me language that says anything different.

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.


Where does it say that the pipe must enter the building in order to be present at the building?

250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.

It clearly states that any of the first 7 that are present at each building and at least six of these does not enter the building at all. By your definition they are not present.

Now what about the ground ring above

So let's say for argument sake you're correct. Where in the NEC will someone find the maximum distance from the structure that the metal water pipe has to be for it to qualify as an electrode even though it doesn't enter the building?

 

[jwelectric]

So let's say for argument sake you're correct. Where in the NEC will someone find the maximum distance from the structure that the metal water pipe has to be for it to qualify as an electrode even though it doesn't enter the building?

at the same distance that would be the maximum allowed for a ground rod or any other electrode.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Don I have answered this more than once so please read slowly and carefully.

From the point of supply by the utility or from the well that is supplying water to the building is present at the building.

Show me language that says anything different.

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.


Where does it say that the pipe must enter the building in order to be present at the building?

250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.

It clearly states that any of the first 7 that are present at each building and at least six of these does not enter the building at all. By your definition they are not present.


Now what about the ground ring above

There in nothing in this post that answers my question.

You have not read my posts in the way I have written them. I have stated that the term "present at the building" does not apply to made electrodes.

As far as your far fetched example of the unknown ground ring, if the contractor does not know it exists how can he be expected to find it and connect to it?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

at the same distance that would be the maximum allowed for a ground rod or any other electrode.

Since there is no maximum distance for any made electrode, this statement would mean that any metal underground water pipe any where in the world would have to be used as a grounding electrode.

 

[jwelectric]

There in nothing in this post that answers my question.

You have not read my posts in the way I have written them. I have stated that the term "present at the building" does not apply to made electrodes.

As far as your far fetched example of the unknown ground ring, if the contractor does not know it exists how can he be expected to find it and connect to it?

Then why are they mentioned in 250.50? I do believe it clearly says "All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shal............"

The inspector is well aware that the ground ring is there as was outlined in the post.

So what do you think about that existing ring?

 

[jwelectric]

Since there is no maximum distance for any made electrode, this statement would mean that any metal underground water pipe any where in the world would have to be used as a grounding electrode.

Boy talking about streaching something.

All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall

From the point of the serving utility which would be the water company or from the well should there be a well supplying the house not all metal pipes.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Then why are they mentioned in 250.50? I do believe it clearly says "All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shal............"

The inspector is well aware that the ground ring is there as was outlined in the post.

So what do you think about that existing ring?

As the current contractor who has never been in the building before, I have no knowledge of that ground ring so there is no way I can think about it.

 

[jwelectric]

As the current contractor who has never been in the building before, I have no knowledge of that ground ring so there is no way I can think about it.

read it again,

In this small jurisdiction there is one code official that does all five trades, building, mechanical, plumbing, electrical, and fire. He has been here forever and was the one who inspected the air terminal installation some years ago.

When the new service is installed will it be required to connect to this existing ground ring? Based on this thread this existing ring is NOT present at the building but somewhere out there in the yard therefore not required to be used.

If you were the electrical inspector what would you say?

The inspector is well aware of the ring so the question is not about the knowledge of the contractor but what will the inspector require.
For the sake of this discussion either put yourself in his shoes and make the call or think of it that he told you that it was present.
Don't avoid the question but address it.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

read it again,



The inspector is well aware of the ring so the question is not about the knowledge of the contractor but what will the inspector require.
For the sake of this discussion either put yourself in his shoes and make the call or think of it that he told you that it was present.
Don't avoid the question but address it.

I have addressed it. There are always special unusal cases and this would be one of them. As the contractor I am not aware of this ground ring so there is no way I could think about it or connect to it. If made aware of it, I would make the connection if I am paid to make it.

I stand by my statement that in general the term "present at the building" does not apply to made electrodes. Made electrodes are, in general, installed by electrical contractor, and there would be no reason for an electrical contractor to install a made electrode if he was not going to make it a part of the grounding electrode system.

As always we are not going to change each others opinion so there is no reason to continue with this thread.

 

[jwelectric]

So this existing electrode that is not inside the building would be required to be used although the electrical contractor did not install the electrode. Then it must be present at the building.

There is nothing found anywhere in the NEC that would lead me to believe that the term ?present at? means that it must be inside the building but there is verbiage found in 250.52(A)(1) that clearly states that the only part of a metal water pipe that is electrode is that part that is in direct contact with earth which means that it cannot be inside the building and be the electrode. Also 250.68(C) has cleared up the fact that any part of the first five feet of a metal water pipe that enters the building is not electrode but can be used as the conductor that reaches to the underground electrode as well and a point to bond the other electrodes too.
The definition of Grounding Electrode in Article 100 also states that it is a direct connection to earth.

There are only two electrodes that are not required to be in direct contact with earth, one is the steel of a building but it must be connect to one of the other electrodes to qualify as an electrode if not in direct contact with earth. The other is a concrete encased electrode that is at the bottom of the footer that is in direct contact with earth.

It is the direct contact with earth that makes something an electrode.

 

[iwire]

There is nothing found anywhere in the NEC that would lead me to believe that the term ?present at? means that it must be inside the building but there is verbiage found in 250.52(A)(1) that clearly states that the only part of a metal water pipe that is electrode is that part that is in direct contact with earth which means that it cannot be inside the building and be the electrode.

There is nothing found anywhere in the NEC that would lead me to believe that the term ?present at? means outside the building.

So there we have it, we will remain in disagreement.

 

[jwelectric]

There is nothing found anywhere in the NEC that would lead me to believe that the term ?present at? means outside the building.

So there we have it, we will remain in disagreement.

Then you are not reading your code book but instead just making assumptions.

Read this:
Grounding Electrode. A conducting object through which a direct connection to earth is established.

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s), if installed.

(2) Metal Frame of the Building or Structure. The metal frame of the building or structure that is connected to the earth by one or more of the following methods:
(1)

At least one structural metal member that is in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more, with or without concrete encasement

(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. A concrete-encased electrode shall consist of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of either (1) or (2):
Informational Note: Concrete installed with insulation, vapor barriers, films or similar items separating the concrete from the earth is not considered to be in ?direct contact? with the earth

(4) Ground Ring. A ground ring encircling the building or structure, in direct contact with the earth, consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of bare copper conductor not smaller than 2 AWG.

Pray tell me how it can be in direct contact with earth and be inside the building at the same time?
There is clear and concise verbiage that states it must be in direct contact with earth to be an electrode.
Now it is your turn to show where in the code it says that it must enter the building in order to be an electrode.

 

[jwelectric]

The debate that Bob and Don are having with me is the term ?present at? and how this would mean outside the building.

What I have repeatedly pointed out is that in order to be a grounding electrode it must be in direct contact with earth.
This is not only the definition but the requirement of all the grounding electrodes except the building steed and a concrete encased electrode to wit the building steel if not in contact with earth must be connected to one of the electrodes that are in contact with earth and the concrete encased electrode which must be in the footer and the footer in contact with earth.

I now present the question of just how this can be accomplished and not be outside the building. How can an electrode be in contact with earth and be anywhere but outside the building. I patiently await an explanation on how the electrode can be anywhere but outside the building.

 

[George Stolz]

Friends, I believe the NEC has handed us a paradox. I think you're both right.