What would you do?

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George Stolz

George Stolz

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Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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Service Manager
Suppose you were changing panels in an apartment project and found a 14/2 homerun to a living room that apparently was damaged thirty years ago during construction.


  • The black is cut off at the NM connector
  • The white is being used as the ungrounded conductor
  • The bare is being used as the grounded conductor
  • The white has a decent resistance to the bare conductor in the same cable
  • The black has no continuity between the panel and the presumed homerun location
A quick investigation shows that there is a jumper between the downstream EGCs and the bare neutral conductor. For some reason as yet undetermined, despite voltage readings consistent with what is readily visible at the panel, the loads do not operate without the bonding jumper in place. They read as an open neutral, despite the fact that all the neutrals on the load side of the home run point are connected to that bare neutral, and 120 volts is present (DMM & Wiggy).

The jumper between the neutrals and the load-side EGCs must be intact for the lights to come on.

So, presented with this information, and knowing that correcting the wiring is outside of my scope of work (I pitched in twenty minutes for free), what would you do?


  • Hook it back up the way it was, and advise the owner?
  • Leave the living room disconnected until advising the owner?
  • Hook it back up on a GFCI breaker, and advise the owner?
  • Option D?
 
Minuteman

Minuteman

Senior Member
Location
The Sooner Nation
Since this is not a critical circuit, I would choose "B".

If it was a critical circuit that I couldn't temporary, than I would choose "A".

If I had a very good relationship with the owner, I would choose "D". (Fix it and add to the bill as an extra).
 
TOOL_5150

TOOL_5150

Senior Member
Location
bay area, ca
I have to CMA and choose B, Unless I personally knew the person, that would be the only way I would handle it. I could not, and would not, knowingly hook up something that is in fact dangerous.

~Matt
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
TOOL_5150 said:
I have to CMA and choose B, Unless I personally knew the person, that would be the only way I would handle it. I could not, and would not, knowingly hook up something that is in fact dangerous.

~Matt
Click to expand...
I too would do the same - calling them, and leaving a note to that effect of CYA'ing. I have done it before, and I will again....

However - from the descriptions.... It is gonna be one hell of a time, and lots of it to sort it all out - i.e. a tough sell too. It took only so many words to explain it to us.... Things like this can end up in the dreaded "it worked before you touched it" mode with a non-electrical minded consumer... Some paranoids out there think we are all thieves anyway... :roll: As the abolute last resort - Tell them you'll offer to stick around if they want a second opinion from someone else of their choosing - if they go there.... Most won't but some do.... In the past I have been called out on service calls where some HO thought the guy right there (From some other company) was pulling one over on them - I get there and look around and find out - 'Yeah - he's right....' Get paid and leave... Some people are willing to pay a service call for $150 to know they are making the right decision of spending $1500 or more in open ended T&M...
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I would try to convince the ho to fix it but I would also make sure the insp. saw it. Sometimes they have no right to make us correct it but it can work in our favor.
 
A/A Fuel GTX

A/A Fuel GTX

Senior Member
Location
WI & AZ
Occupation
Electrician
I also vote for option "B". Sounds like some of the "work" I've seen around here. What the heck, if it works, then it must be OK................NOT!
 
S

SEO

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
I would advise the owner of the problem and not reconnect. Possibly nothing would ever happen but now that you are aware of the problem and if something did who do you think that the finger would be pointed at? Hopefully the owner will work with you to correct the problem. Be sure to CYA.
 
Pierre C Belarge

Pierre C Belarge

Senior Member
Location
Westchester County, New York
My first action after discovering the issue would be:
1. to disconnect the circuit
2. speak personally with the customer and fully explain the situation. "fire, shock, death" is how I relate these types of issues, no beating around the bush.
3. depending on the reaction I receive, is how I would treat the situation.
3-A. customer says fix it, I fix it
3-B. customer says it worked fine all these years leave it alone. I will not reconnect and put in writing what has occurred - which now means I am most likely leaving the premises
 
E

Electrical guy

Member
Pierre C Belarge said:
My first action after discovering the issue would be:
1. to disconnect the circuit
2. speak personally with the customer and fully explain the situation. "fire, shock, death" is how I relate these types of issues, no beating around the bush.
3. depending on the reaction I receive, is how I would treat the situation.
3-A. customer says fix it, I fix it
3-B. customer says it worked fine all these years leave it alone. I will not reconnect and put in writing what has occurred - which now means I am most likely leaving the premises
Click to expand...

Good answer.
 
S

~Shado~

Senior Member
Location
Aurora, Colorado
Tough one George.....

Observing something wrong and giving notice to HO vs investigating/touching something outside of scope of work and finding issues.

I would choose 'B' at this time. Since you touched it, I think this extends your liability as the last one involved with it. And as a responsible electrician, I wouldn't hook up something that is an issue, regardless if it worked for 'years' (I have done this numerous times thru the years, they weren't always happy, but, I felt better)....I would tell them to consider themselves very lucky nothing has happened so far. Since this is an apartment building, the owner should be more concerned with safety of tenants.

Figure a price to correct and offer it. If they refuse to correct it, then, leave disconnected...finish your scope of work, with note on issue, inform inspector, and move on.

Let someother idiot connect it.
 
cowboyjwc

cowboyjwc

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Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
So if we complain that someone did hack work and then we walk away from the hack job with out repairing it, doesn't that make us an accessory hack?

And an inspector can write it up, you're replacing panels and it's hooked to your panel. Now you may not be responsible to fix it, but it will get fixed.
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
cowboyjwc said:
So if we complain that someone did hack work and then we walk away from the hack job with out repairing it, doesn't that make us an accessory hack?

And an inspector can write it up, you're replacing panels and it's hooked to your panel. Now you may not be responsible to fix it, but it will get fixed.
Click to expand...
Sounds like it's something an inspector would not notice in a visual inspection of the scope of work - you would have to tell them about it. Which I have been more than happy to do before. At which point you can be opening the owner to much more than what might be necessary - to include opening walls etc.
 
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