Where Does the NEC Stop?

[hockeyoligist2]

Several weeks ago i was at a tract of land i bought in KY.I have 2 services on the property one on the house and another on the garage.The POCO came to do an actual reading since the others were estimated.I said I wanted to upgrade the 100 amp in the garage to 200 amp I intend to make a wood working shop what did I need to do as far as permits.He said if I owned the land I didn`t need a permit.Just call for a disconnect and they will return inspect and reconnect.Needless to say I upgraded they reconnected and alls good.I come from florida,here if you add a deck you need a permit.My neighbor in KY is building a 4,000 sq ft log home no permits no inspections just build it.I guess they figure if it falls in on you then your the dummy.

Same here, if you are outside of the city limits in Laurens county, it is do as you please. I called POCO and asked them to pull the meter for an upgrade (for a friend) they said just cut the seal and pop it out and they would come by after i finished and put on a new seal. That was 3 years ago and the old seal is still hanging on the meter base!

 

[iwire]

Bob,



Clever way to avoid the conflict!

OR

Since you are now a "Moderator", you are above answering certain members posts?

Why not just admit you were mistaken and really didn't read the code on this one before you disagreed with Charlie!!

Yeah you know me, I run from conflict all the time.

It's really not complicated, you opened your post being rude, that being the case I can't be bothered.

Don't worry about Charlie B, he can take care of himself quite well.

 

[charlie b]

Using this concept why is it that in industrial facilities where someone has run an extension cord to a fan or something to use while they are operating a piece of machinery, note: not installing but operating, the owner gets hit because of the NEC reference that you can not use portable cords as an extension of premis wiring?

This is the point on which everything I have said so far might turn. "The owner gets hit. . . ." By whom, and how, and with what authority behind it? If it is an OSHA Inspector, then the NEC is a side player. If it is an Electrical Inspector, then by what authority is he inspecting this area? Is there some installation project going on? Is this something he saw on his way to the location of that project?

I am not saying that the homeowner can do anything he wants. I am saying that anything he does with no more effort than simply plugging in a cord cannot, by itself, create an NEC violation, for the reason that the NEC does not address use of the system.

 

[roger]

Dave, (websparky) do you really think Bob has neglected "really" reading the code on this issue?

As some one who is not really interested in this thread (meaning Me) but has been scanning over it periodically, it "really" appears as though you were taking a cheap shot and shooting from the lip in an effort to be rude.


Roger

 

[M. D.]

So..... if I, as an electrician, plug another U.E. into the duplex on 15 amp IBC to serve a fridge , it is a violation , if the homowner plugs another in, it is not

I say it is still a violation of the NEC just one that can't be prosecuted,... sort of like "diplomatic immunity" for homeowners.

 

[iwire]

one that can't be prosecuted,... sort of like "diplomatic immunity" for homeowners.

LOL

I like that.

 

[iwire]

do you really think Bob has neglected "really" reading the code on this issue?

Thanks.

 

[iwire]

Charlie

A homeowner buys and installs unlisted holiday lights.

Not a violation.

This same homeowner pays an electrician to do the same job.

The electrician provides and installs unlisted holiday lights.

Violation

Third option, homeowner hires their landscaper to do the job.

The landscaper provides and installs unlisted holiday lights.

Violation[?]

I think diplomatic immunity is the best answer so far.

 

[websparky]

Rudeness!

Rudeness!

It's really not complicated, you opened your post being rude, that being the case I can't be bothered.

OK, I can see where you may have thought I was being rude by titling my post "Wake up and smell the bacon". Unfortunately for me, my sense of sarcastic humor back fired and caused you to be offended. Well Bob, for that I apologize. I will try to be less sarcastic in the future when I address you, Roger and others here of such standards. Please forgive my ignorance.

Now I am sure that Charlie needs no defense for his opinion and I was certainly not trying to offer him any. However, I was pointing out his rational as to the code mainly applying to "installations" where ever they may be, residential or other wise. If by chance you might have the time and inclination to address Charlie's post, I for one would be most interested in hearing your opinion.

Thanks!

 

[hillbilly]

Yeah, willingly contracting away certain liberties to a representative governing body in exchange for (roughly) equal protections and restrictions for all is about as communist as.....apple pie?

Dude, that's our system here in these good ol' Excited States of America.

I will admit my earlier comments were very quick, I didn't think any of you wanted the full lecture version. Besides, the truth is that building codes aren't the purest essence of democracy in action; the taking of property by eminent domain probably holds that title.

--

Maybe we should get back to the more pressing topic of whether winged frogs would still bump their butts. Oh, wait, that's another thread....

Dude? No dudes in this neck of the woods. A little Problem with the status quo?

 

[George Stolz]

And, with God as my witness, I'll never be hungry again!

[/drama]

 

[roger]

Please forgive my ignorance.


Thanks!

Okay, I'll forgive your ignorance but I can't speak for others.

Roger

 

[charlie b]

"Ignorance" is the most easily cured of all human maladies. "Want of Humility" is the most difficult.

Famous saying by some famous guy. Or at least it will be, once I put my publicist to work on it.

I think we are all friends again. Let's get back to work.

 

[BarryO]

Buiding codes in general are a violation of constitutional rights. If I am a private land owner in this country, I should be able to build whatever I want, whenever I want, regardless of what some building code says. But that is not reality is it..

Even setting aside the fact that few, if any, private land owners possess a clear title to their real property, which section of the U.S. Constitution is being violated by the state and local statutes that normatively reference building codes?

There's nothing in the Constitution, or even the English Common Law that predates it, that grants owners of real property absolute sovereinty over their holdings. Heck, every year, governments impose a Primary Lien on every piece of real property in their jurisdiction; said lien has precedence over all others and can only be removed by payment of property taxes. Compared to this, building codes ain't nothin'.

 

[LarryFine]

Then there's the issue of "imminenet domain" that's been popping up lately.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

'Been away

'Been away

I am popping in here a little late, sometimes that is good...hard for me to say something stupid... wait there is plenty of time for that.

It is good to see how "deep" electrical people can get, this subject seems to have brought this point out well.

I agree with Bryan's earlier comment about tamper resistant receptacles and the principle of manufacturers bettering their market position by having code written to help them.

There are plenty of things in the code I do not like (2 ground rods comes to mind), yet I enforce/teach them.
This new proposal to have tamper proof receptacles, is in my opinion the most ridiculus code requirement that may ever be introduced into the NEC, EVER. If a parent is not able to determine when to help their children, we have other issues to deal with... the NEC is not out to solve the world's problems. I am almost 100% positive the NEC is an electrical safety document for the INSTALLATION of electrical work. How does the NEC determine that the house being built will be occupied by people who will have very young children???

Weather resistance devices, and some of the other rediculous proposals (Alan Manche's proposal for all dwelling receptacles to be AFCI protected - where is the documentation to justify such an insane requirement at this time. How about developing an AFCI that is as effective as advertised and then make some decent proposal - let manufacturers catch up to developing equipment that will work with these AFCIs) have me wondering where the NEC is headed.

As far as homeowners creating violations... you guys are doing a fine job discussing this...

 

[yanici]

Curious as to what is happening in the 2008 Code requiring tamper proof receptacles in dwellings. Any new word on this?

 

[Rockyd]

Your seeking opinions on this...


I think it goes back to the beginnings, when countrymen were much more active in government. Listen to Sam Adams-

'If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands that which feed you. May your chain be set lightly upon you and posterity forget ye were our countrymen.'

The founders knew if we didn't keep government in check it would be out of control. So in the Constitutional amendments we have the 9th and 10th amendments to help guide rights of the individual to do as he pleases, within the bounds of reality.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

As a nation that follows the rule of law, and a republic that where we allow those we vote into position, to vote for us on issues, we can be part of the process in trying to keep things real. Our ballpark in which we play is under the jurisdiction of the NEC, and maybe local addendums, depending on where you are in America. Your forced to be an activist in your work community if you don't want to see it go to hell in a hand basket, otherwise "others" will be making the rules for you!

One of the problems with people who can legislate, do so in knee jerk reaction. The NEC is becoming more of a parameters guide in a lot of areas, even where it doesn't belong at times. Will have to go through 2008 proposals to comment further on our direction, as an electrical community.

In regard to whether or not we can create a code violation by virtue of using electrical appliances and equipment, I don't think so, but let me get back to you in a day or two.

 

[allenwayne]

"Where does the NEC stop?"

I don't know, but if the code gets any bigger, it can be used as a good door STOP. Buiding codes in general are a violation of constitutional rights. If I am a private land owner in this country, I should be able to build whatever I want, whenever I want, regardless of what some building code says. But that is not reality is it.

I say building codes should only make requirements that protect persons from someone or something and not protect people from themselves. This provides general public protection as needed.

For example, I am not a huge fan of the baby barriers required at all pools here in Florida. It's not that I am not concerned about children safety, but that I am more concerned about lack of parential responsibility. Some people would argue that required window shutters here in Florida amount to the same. I do not agree. If a storm breaks the windows in a building resulting in the structure failing, the windborn debry from that damage will result in the damage of other people's property. I see a difference.

When it comes to the NEC. It's hard to know where we need to draw the line. The examples you provide are good evidence that the NEC may be going too far. Tamper-resistance receptacles in a dwelling is another good example of the NEC trying to be a good parent when the real parents aren't.

I too look forward to how others feel about this issue.

Bryan I so much agree with what you said.I recently bought property in Kentucky and when I went to county dept.to inqure about what permits I would need I was told as long as I own the property I can do what ever I wanted as long as a business(for profit) wasn`t doing the work.So I built a 4 room cabin off the stream set a service and wired it and all that was required to get electrical service was a quick no problem inspect from the poco hook up man.

Here in Fl. the permit section of the building dept.is months behind.Inspections are a joke.Ask an inspector to cite a code article some just get mad and say because it`s what I want !!!! Some are good inspectors don`t get me wrong in this statement but the system is failing.Why else would the county farm out inspections to engineering firms.They pay the inspectors way below what an average journeyman makes and give them all th responsibility of signing their names to the permit.

I like the attitude in KY.If you build it and it falls down on you ,well your a dumb a@#........