ZOOZ Dimmer

[Adamjamma]

It bugged me so much I just sent them an email requesting more information on how it works.. see what transpires.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, I agree with Don. I look at your diagram and I see the "signal wires" that Panasonic Whisper Green exhaust fans use to control their plug n'play relays that change exhaust speed. Panasonic has two red wires, one of which is solidly connected to the neutral, the other of which is considered to be line voltage. . . except it is only an electronic circuit level line voltage that is shunted to the neutral through a standard snap switch, basically taking the logic state from signal voltage while open to zero volts. The circuitry uses the logic state change however it is engineered to.

The ZOOZ diagram, while labeled as it is, only shows a single traveler. One cannot wire a threeway that is described in 404.2 with a single traveler. . . therefore, what is shown in the ZOOZ diagram is not a Code violation.

I'll bet that the manufacturers of this are going to get push back from various members of the AHJ community until the language of the documentation becomes clearer.

I agree with Don also. However, there is a neutral conductor on the switch. I did mention earlier that the neutral load is at the light. The thing is that an inspector would have every right to complain using section 200.7 as his/her argument.

I was not worried about the dangers of a switch neutral as the neutral is wired directly to the load. I don't think the code has dealt with this yet.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If it is simply completing a loop then why is the neutral bonded? In a fault in the bulb or in the lighting circuit from another bulb you now would have fault current running through the switches.

better design would be to have the current run through the switches before coming to the dimmer, so the load side of first switch- the common- becomes the feed to the dimmer. But, perhaps this meets the exception for a loop, except I thought the loop was supposed to be kept from any fault conditions by ensuring the live to be disconnected before or at the same time as the neutral.

How would that drive fault current though the switches? The red wire on the switch does not connect in any way to the loads served by the switch. It is part of the internal logic circuit.

 

[Adamjamma]

How would that drive fault current though the switches? The red wire on the switch does not connect in any way to the loads served by the switch. It is part of the internal logic circuit.

But that is not clear until you figure out that a note over the switch in the ballon tells us that we can use a normal one way switch, with the red to the one terminal and white to the neutral.

thus, in a three way switching ( or four way ) system you would run the neutral as they show.. connect your travelers as we normally do through the switches, and then bring our ‘live feed’ back to the red wire position from the final three way common terminal. But all the switching would be in a loop system rather than live system... except it is using the neutral as one part of the loop.

Thus, if a fault occurred elsewhere on the neutral conductor, in another room for instance, fault current would be brought through the neutrals to the red wire position on the dimmer, until the breaker operated.
Dennis or Jumper, am I wrong here?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis or Jumper, am I wrong here?

Yeah, I think your wrong

 

[jumper]

Yeah, I think your wrong

Ditto.

Don is pretty clear in explaining what is actually happening.

I was mistaken at first also.

 

[al hildenbrand]

connect your travelers as we normally do through the switches,

But, you see, even with the word "traveler" on the ZOOZ diagram by the ONE wire used, there is no second traveler, so there is no "we normally do" in this.

And there is no fourway in the ZOOZ diagram, . . .

and then bring our ‘live feed’ back to the red wire position from the final three way common terminal. But all the switching would be in a loop system rather than live system... except it is using the neutral as one part of the loop.

Thus, if a fault occurred elsewhere on the neutral conductor, in another room for instance, fault current would be brought through the neutrals to the red wire position on the dimmer, until the breaker operated.
Dennis or Jumper, am I wrong here?

The Branch Circuit neutral on the dimmer device is there because the electronics require it, and, even though it is a "switch", the electronic purpose of the dimmer's internal circuitry (always being an energized load between the Hot and the Neutral) makes the dimmer device ALSO Utilization Equipment. See the Article 100 Definitions of Utilization Equipment, and Device.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Al, it seems to me that the neutral to the switch is fine but why not use a separate wire that is not part of the neutral to send the signal to the other switch? Seems like that would not raise eyebrows.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

But that is not clear until you figure out that a note over the switch in the ballon tells us that we can use a normal one way switch, with the red to the one terminal and white to the neutral.

thus, in a three way switching ( or four way ) system you would run the neutral as they show.. connect your travelers as we normally do through the switches, and then bring our ‘live feed’ back to the red wire position from the final three way common terminal. But all the switching would be in a loop system rather than live system... except it is using the neutral as one part of the loop.

Thus, if a fault occurred elsewhere on the neutral conductor, in another room for instance, fault current would be brought through the neutrals to the red wire position on the dimmer, until the breaker operated.
Dennis or Jumper, am I wrong here?

You don't need any kind of note to tell you that the red wire is not part of the supply to the loads. They already have a direct connection to the grounded circuit conductor. There is no reason to think the neural to the second switch is carrying any load current.

While the voltage of the grounded conductor at the second switch would increase as measured to the EGC if the grounded circuit conductor was a part of a fault return path as a result of voltage drop on the grounded conductor, the fault current would not flow to the second switch as that switch does not have a path to the circuit source. The fault current only flows to the source.

 

[jumper]

It bugged me so much I just sent them an email requesting more information on how it works.. see what transpires.

Cool. Let us know what you find out.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Al, it seems to me that the neutral to the switch is fine but why not use a separate wire that is not part of the neutral to send the signal to the other switch? Seems like that would not raise eyebrows.

Yeah. I get that point of yours.

Panasonic, in their exhaust fan electronics, chose to make both wires "red" and labeled them "signal wires" on their manufacturers instructions. They totally obscure the fact that one is solidly connected to the branch circuit neutral. The instructions also advise using a Chapter 3 wiring method.
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Now, to play devil's advocate, the ZOOZ diagram shown in this thread DOES have an interesting (to me) benefit. As drawn and labeled, when a beginner faces an existing real world threeway switching setup, in the wild, puzzling out the alterations to make the setup work when the Switched Leg and the continuous Hot are not present in the same switch box, may well be easier for the naming of things as shown.

Just sayin' . . .

And leaving the dimmer to switch neutral named as "neutral" avoids any 200.7 entanglements.

 

[Adamjamma]

Response from Zooz

Hi Adam,

Sure, the confusion is obvious to any electrician. The neutral in multi-point control is not switchable, it serves to send electronic signal to the relay to control the load. GE uses neutral in a similar matter but connected to dedicated electronic switches on the other side. Both switches are UL listed and comply with North American safety standards.

But if you're looking for a solution that looks more similar to a standard 3-way, we also created new switches that use 2 travelers and don't employ the neutral wire the same way the ZEN21/ZEN22 does.

You can see the details here:

https://www.thesmartesthouse.com/pr...l-switch-zen26-with-simple-direct-3-way-4-way

https://www.thesmartesthouse.com/products/zooz-z-wave-plus-s2-dimmer-switch-zen27-with-simple- direct-3-way-4-way

Please let me know if you have any additional questions and we'll be happy to help!

Diana

Support Team
Zooz

ask@getzooz.com
www.getzooz.com

 

[Adamjamma]

And to some of you thinking I did not understand how it works, I use the three way, or two way as it is called here in the UK many times rather than using a one way switch... easier to find sometimes and only difference in use is no red mark or on off mark on it here... you just do not connect to one side of it... hot goes in common, load to one side... easy peasy lemon squeesy.

but, have never connected a neutral to a switch, because I was taught you never ever do that, unless it is a double pole switch that you are intentionally cutting both feeds on, usually done in some dc work with transformers and radio work....

 

[jumper]

Nice job Adam. Thanks!:thumbsup:

 

[Adamjamma]

I am trying to learn correctly and upgrade from handyman status..lol..