Thoughts on GFCI breakers instead of GFCI receptacles

[marmathsen]

What are your thoughts on using GFCI breakers instead of GFCI receptacles?

For reference I'm a residential electrician. For years we installed GFCI receptacles where required, but as the requirements for AFCI protection got expanded we started using dual function AFCI/GFCI circuit breakers where both were required for a given receptacle. We soon after decided that locating ALL of our AFCI and GFCI protection (including GFCI only breakers) inside the panel made for easier troubleshooting for the homeowner and simplified installation, so no more GFCI receptacles. We've been doing this now for a few years, with very few exceptions where we feel a GFCI receptacle is more logical.

My question is if anyone has an opinion on this logic. Are there concerns of the GFCI not functioning as quickly or accurately when it's 100'+ away from the receptacle? Obviously if you're a landscaper outside and you trip a GFCI with your tools and no one's home to reset the breaker, that'd be annoying (we've discussed this a lot in my company).

Just curious. Thanks.

Rob

 

[peter d]

It's been the norm for many of us now, myself included.

Now, that being said, I am actually favoring going back to the "old way" and using an AFCI breaker and GFCI receptacle. Despite the "on board diagnostics" all the breakers now carry, it can actually be a real pain to diagnose what is causing them to trip. Some of them don't have "idiot lights" on them which makes it a pain.

To take it a step further, if you're using GE products, it makes even more sense to keep the functions separate as the GE AFCI (and possibly one other ) no longer incorporates GFPE and is therefore not subject to the nuisance tripping that is common with others.

 

[Adamjamma]

so you are saying use the AFCI breaker and then the GFCI outlets, so you have the AFCI protection but, you get the GFCI in the rooms... easier to check and reset if it trips?

Interesting and makes sense...

 

[peter d]

so you are saying use the AFCI breaker and then the GFCI outlets, so you have the AFCI protection but, you get the GFCI in the rooms... easier to check and reset if it trips?

Interesting and makes sense...

Yes, exactly. Like I said, the combo breakers all have diagnostics that tell you what caused them to trip. But these devices are so finicky that I would rather keep the functions separate from now on.

 

[ramsy]

In my opinion:

1) Until Refrigerator-nuisance trips of GFCI's are better addressed, avoiding Dual Function or GFCI breakers for SABC's may be advised.

2) Until Microwave-nuisance trips of AFCI's are better addressed, avoiding Dual Function or AFCI breakers for SABC's may be advised.

3) Dual Function & GFCI breakers may be best for Dishwashers, providing Readily-Accessible reset where under-counter outlets can not.

 

[romex jockey]

The problem is 210.12 keeps uppin' the ante' , as well as this new accessibility focus

Now if you've contracted an average dwelling, you've a choice to afci OCPD, gfci receptacle outlets , or go DF

Economically DF's are a no brainer

Realistically , i'm loosing my hair over them

~RJ~

 

[Adamjamma]

It is a shame no manufacturers have made a double pole 20 amp disconnect switch with the afci or gfci on the same unit for those switches we need under counter in a home... like the garbage disposal, the dishwasher, the refrigerator... even the stove... kind of like the switch and socket outlets I used to always put in... can get grid style double pole switches... labeled even... but not the afci or gfci in a grid package..

 

[Jraef]

Just addressing this part of it:

Are there concerns of the GFCI not functioning as quickly or accurately when it's 100'+ away from the receptacle?

In theory because the protection is based on current, current in any circuit is the same at any point in the circuit, so it shouldn't matter.

In practice, there is a lot of suspicion that the electronics involved (especially for AFCI) are susceptible to being tricked by Electo-Magnetic and Radio Frequency Interference issues and the longer the wire, the more it can act as an antenna to pick up EMI/RFI.

 

[DrSparks]

I’ve never seen an combo “nuisance” trip. Generally they trip when there is a legitimate line to neutral imbalance. Perhaps shitty appliance?

IMO they are quite cost effective. I’ve put in hundreds. No callbacks... yet.


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[GoldDigger]

I’ve never seen an combo “nuisance” trip. Generally they trip when there is a legitimate line to neutral imbalance. Perhaps shitty appliance?

IMO they are quite cost effective. I’ve put in hundreds. No callbacks... yet.


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I think it is far more likely that the AFCI function will false trip than the GFCI function.
And depending on where the extra bond or incorrectly shared neutral is located, the GFCI receptacle will trip too. And I would not call any of them false trips.

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[kwired]

It is a shame no manufacturers have made a double pole 20 amp disconnect switch with the afci or gfci on the same unit for those switches we need under counter in a home... like the garbage disposal, the dishwasher, the refrigerator... even the stove... kind of like the switch and socket outlets I used to always put in... can get grid style double pole switches... labeled even... but not the afci or gfci in a grid package..

For new circuits that require AFCI protection, the entire branch circuit must be protected, this means AFCI must be at the branch circuit device. GFCI protection is only required for the receptacle for most things requiring GFCI. Swimming pools and a few other items may require more than just protection for a receptacle but nearly all the typical dwelling items requiring GFCI require the receptacle to be what is protected.

 

[kwired]

What are your thoughts on using GFCI breakers instead of GFCI receptacles?

For reference I'm a residential electrician. For years we installed GFCI receptacles where required, but as the requirements for AFCI protection got expanded we started using dual function AFCI/GFCI circuit breakers where both were required for a given receptacle. We soon after decided that locating ALL of our AFCI and GFCI protection (including GFCI only breakers) inside the panel made for easier troubleshooting for the homeowner and simplified installation, so no more GFCI receptacles. We've been doing this now for a few years, with very few exceptions where we feel a GFCI receptacle is more logical.

My question is if anyone has an opinion on this logic. Are there concerns of the GFCI not functioning as quickly or accurately when it's 100'+ away from the receptacle? Obviously if you're a landscaper outside and you trip a GFCI with your tools and no one's home to reset the breaker, that'd be annoying (we've discussed this a lot in my company).

Just curious. Thanks.

Rob

One problem with long circuit runs with GFCI at the beginning of the run is any capacitive leakage on that long run lessens how much other leakage there can be before the GFCI will trip. If you have a long run and are leaking 3 mA over that run, then plug in an item that also leaks 3 mA you are right there in the trip range of the GFCI. If you put GFCI at the receptacle for same installation, your plugged in item with mA leakage is still leaking 3 mA, but you have a little room before you get into trip range.

 

[Adamjamma]

So based upon the above... use afci breakers in panel, then if gfci needed do that from outlets but in the case of an outlet behind a fridge for instance or under the sink.. such as dishwasher or garbage disposal.. even though they call for dedicated circuits in some places would you put a gfci outlet then a switch above the counter, then run to the outlet for the appliance? Just trying to figure this out... in my kitchen here in UK have a fused switch marked refrigerator above the counter, as fridge outlet is accessible only by removing fridge... can take my screwdriver and remove the fuse if need to work on the outlet... have the same setup on dishwasher and on washing machine ... switch with neon light and removable fuse... above counter, under counter is single outlet ... trying to figure out how to do sAme in Jamaica yet supply afci and gfci since if they adopt NEC will be required eventually..lol...
plus, having done so much electrical...may not agree that AFCI does any good but like RCD or gfci..lol...think that is useful. Just want to make sure my retirement home is terrific and low maintenance when done... plus want to make sure anyone I do electrical for is getting most up to date and codes as possible..

 

[kwired]

So based upon the above... use afci breakers in panel, then if gfci needed do that from outlets but in the case of an outlet behind a fridge for instance or under the sink.. such as dishwasher or garbage disposal.. even though they call for dedicated circuits in some places would you put a gfci outlet then a switch above the counter, then run to the outlet for the appliance? Just trying to figure this out... in my kitchen here in UK have a fused switch marked refrigerator above the counter, as fridge outlet is accessible only by removing fridge... can take my screwdriver and remove the fuse if need to work on the outlet... have the same setup on dishwasher and on washing machine ... switch with neon light and removable fuse... above counter, under counter is single outlet ... trying to figure out how to do sAme in Jamaica yet supply afci and gfci since if they adopt NEC will be required eventually..lol...
plus, having done so much electrical...may not agree that AFCI does any good but like RCD or gfci..lol...think that is useful. Just want to make sure my retirement home is terrific and low maintenance when done... plus want to make sure anyone I do electrical for is getting most up to date and codes as possible..

Many use dual function breaker mostly because it typically cost less than an AFCI breaker plus a GFCI receptacle, when both types of protection are required. There can be design decisions that maybe call for otherwise at times.

 

[brantmacga]

I use dual-function everywhere except for bathrooms, and that is for convenience to the homeowner if they’re just out of the shower and an appliance trips it.

In my service experience, 9 times out of 10 the first place a homeowner looks when a circuit is off is at the loadcenter. I can’t tell you how many service calls I’ve done that involved a tripped GFI receptacle in the garage or exterior receptacles and the first thing they say is, “I’ve checked the breakers and everything is on.” And the GFI is usually hidden behind something in the garage anyway.

As for kitchens, I rarely wire a house that has receps in the backsplash. And I certainly wouldn’t put one behind the fridge or in the cabinet for a dishwasher.


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[kwired]

I use dual-function everywhere except for bathrooms, and that is for convenience to the homeowner if they’re just out of the shower and an appliance trips it.

In my service experience, 9 times out of 10 the first place a homeowner looks when a circuit is off is at the loadcenter. I can’t tell you how many service calls I’ve done that involved a tripped GFI receptacle in the garage or exterior receptacles and the first thing they say is, “I’ve checked the breakers and everything is on.” And the GFI is usually hidden behind something in the garage anyway.

As for kitchens, I rarely wire a house that has receps in the backsplash. And I certainly wouldn’t put one behind the fridge or in the cabinet for a dishwasher.


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Care to clarify that? The required outlets for the countertops typically must go in the "backsplash area". Maybe you put them as high as you can under the upper cabinets, that is still part of the "backsplash" to some people.

 

[brantmacga]

Care to clarify that? The required outlets for the countertops typically must go in the "backsplash area". Maybe you put them as high as you can under the upper cabinets, that is still part of the "backsplash" to some people.

Yeh sorry, we use under-cabinet power strips most of the time.


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[wwhitney]

Yeh sorry, we use under-cabinet power strips most of the time.

What's your preferred brand/model?

Thanks, Wayne

 

[FionaZuppa]

I use dual-function everywhere except for bathrooms, and that is for convenience to the homeowner if they’re just out of the shower and an appliance trips it.

In my service experience, 9 times out of 10 the first place a homeowner looks when a circuit is off is at the loadcenter. I can’t tell you how many service calls I’ve done that involved a tripped GFI receptacle in the garage or exterior receptacles and the first thing they say is, “I’ve checked the breakers and everything is on.” And the GFI is usually hidden behind something in the garage anyway.

As for kitchens, I rarely wire a house that has receps in the backsplash. And I certainly wouldn’t put one behind the fridge or in the cabinet for a dishwasher.


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So, the person wet out of the shower somehow trips the gfi receptacle, so the idea to have a reset button right there at the location (outlet) of 120vac 20A for a wet person to use/press is, a good idea ?? I never really understood that.

As for receptacle behind a fridge, if you dont put one there where does the fridge plug in to?

 

[brantmacga]

What's your preferred brand/model?

Thanks, Wayne

Legrand adorne


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