My personal home has current on #6 to water pipe.

[growler]

Actually, the black wire came to mind with him saying the fans are hot. Low voltage, motor overheating. Don’t know why the tv got hot though...

kinda went the other way when he said the cases got hot fast. Now I’m assuming a bad neutral on at least that circuit and return currents going back to source through the bare ground on the Romex....

I have no idea why the TV would get hot.That current on the bond to the water pipe, he said that didn't change when main power was shut off.

The only thing we are left with is some ceiling fans getting hot.

I had to replace some fans a few months ago that were hooked up by a homeowner or handyman. The directions for the fans warned on the first page not to hook up on a dimmer or speed control. The fans were remote controlled and needed full line voltage for the units to operate correctly.
I don't know if the fan motors got hot because by the time I got there they were no longer working. I looked at the directions and there was a full page warning again the use of dimmers and the light dimmer was still there.

Another thing. I kind of wonder if this is a new house or one that's been remodeled. I have not seen a cold water ground on a new house in a long time (could be a local thing) because they don't run metal pipe to the main anymore ( at least not in this area).

 

[Eamp]

I had to stop and sleep last night. First thing I did a month ago was tighten and check for loose connections in panel and in circuit to bedroom. Everything was good. I am using just pull chains. No speed controllers on fans. I will pick back up tonight when I get home around 6 central time. Thanks everyone.

 

[growler]

You could troubleshoot the Neutral issue, or you could isolate your piping like this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2iejrZsXkM :lol:

So he has a "lead" pipe coming into his house and he is not worried about that?

I wonder if he has any idea where current can flow it he removes the bond from those pipes and they become energized?

I think maybe lead in the water supply does kill brain cells. :?

 

[Hv&Lv]

The only thing we are left with is some ceiling fans getting hot.

And the low voltage...
he said he checked neutrals.
So maybe now we are at the black wire.
Still wondering about the tv though...

 

[gar]

190919-1649 EDT

Eamp:

Some information for you to work with.

For copper wire at 20 deg C:
#10 is very close to 1 ohm per 1000 ft,
#12 about 1.6 ohms per 1000 ft, and
#14 about 2.5 ohms per 1000 ft.

If you run a distance of 100 ft from a main panel with #14 wire your loop resistance would be 0.5 ohms. At 10 A this is a loop voltage drop of 5 V. A 120 V input would produce 115 V across the load. On the neutral you would see a drop of 2.5 V, and on the hot wire a drop of 2.5 V.

If you use the EGC test lead in the extension cord from the main panel as a reference, then you will read 2.5 to the neutral at the load, and 120-2.5 = 117.5 at the load hot wire. Except it is not quite this clean. The hot line will also have a small voltage drop across the supplying breaker.

For whatever cable length you may have you can do a resistance calculation, and then estimate voltage drop. If the neutral voltage change is greater than expected, then you have a neutral problem somewhere. Same for the hot wire.

.

 

[al hildenbrand]

So, in review:

I shut my main off one day and checked the neutral and I had about 1 amp of current still with main shut off. So I went over to where the #6 bonds to the water pipe in the floor and still 1 amp of current with main shut off.

We live in a brand new neighborhood about one year old with new houses still going up. We are buried primaries. I had POCO out and they ran new primary across lawn and only hooked up neutral and current was present to GEC.[/FONT]

I believe Eamp means "secondary", or "Service Lateral" as defined in NEC Article 100 Definitions. But, note the indication of underground primary to padmount transformers, which means the PoCo primary side is likely a wye which would permit primary "unbalance" current to take ALL available paths back to the substation, including Eamp's metal municipal waterpipe connection.

Only combining factor of the 2 rooms is they are the farthest circuits from my panel.

I tested from his room with the hair dryer on and it drops to 111v at the prongs from the hair dryer. Went into basement and tested both phases at panel with hair dryer running still and both phases @120v.

The problems with the TV and the paddle fans are, in my opinion, almost certainly a separate issue.

The Service Lateral grounded conductor and GEC to waterpipe current are red herrings in this trouble shoot.

Overlooked dimming control(s) sound like a possibility.

Eamp, question. When you added the paddlefans, were they to an existing ceiling outlet, or did you add a new switch leg and paddlefan box?

 

[growler]

My neighbors have had some quality issues (flickering lights and the electrician who wired all of our homes has come out and switched some of the arc faults for regular breakers to try and address their power quality problems.

Has anyone here had a problem with arc fault breakers causing lights to flicker ? I have not herd of this but I do have and open mind.

 

[Eamp]

So, in review:



I believe Eamp means "secondary", or "Service Lateral" as defined in NEC Article 100 Definitions. But, note the indication of underground primary to padmount transformers, which means the PoCo primary side is likely a wye which would permit primary "unbalance" current to take ALL available paths back to the substation, including Eamp's metal municipal waterpipe connection.




The problems with the TV and the paddle fans are, in my opinion, almost certainly a separate issue.

The Service Lateral grounded conductor and GEC to waterpipe current are red herrings in this trouble shoot.

Overlooked dimming control(s) sound like a possibility.

Eamp, question. When you added the paddlefans, were they to an existing ceiling outlet, or did you add a new switch leg and paddlefan box?

Replaced the existing lights out with ceiling fans in both rooms. No dimmers, no speed controls. One switch leg. Use the pull chains.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Replaced the existing lights out with ceiling fans in both rooms. No dimmers, no speed controls. One switch leg. Use the pull chains.

OK. Since the switch is existing, I have to ask, did you pull the switch plate in each room and verify that the switch is, in fact, a snap switch, not something like a Togglr or a Lutron Ariadni?

 

[Eamp]

OK. Since the switch is existing, I have to ask, did you pull the switch plate in each room and verify that the switch is, in fact, a snap switch, not something like a Togglr or a Lutron Ariadni?

yes they are standard 15a s.p. switches

 

[growler]

Replaced the existing lights out with ceiling fans in both rooms. No dimmers, no speed controls. One switch leg. Use the pull chains.

Do you use this switch to turn on both a fan and light kit after the fan speed is set?
Is this a single gang switch box or is there say a switched receptacle controlled from same switch box?
When the fan is running does it appear to be running at a normal speed for the setting. Say on the fast speed does it appear to be normal or a little slow?
If you have a light kit on the fan then what type?

 

[Eamp]

Do you use this switch to turn on both a fan and light kit after the fan speed is set?
Is this a single gang switch box or is there say a switched receptacle controlled from same switch box?
When the fan is running does it appear to be running at a normal speed for the setting. Say on the fast speed does it appear to be normal or a little slow?
If you have a light kit on the fan then what type?

I have been turning the light on first and then using the pull chain to turn on fan. It is a single gang switch box and the plug that feeds his tv is fed out of the single gang switch box. Fan appears to run at normal speed maybe a little laggy at start. The light kit is a 2 bulb standard kit with led light bulbs that came with the fan.

 

[growler]

I have been turning the light on first and then using the pull chain to turn on fan. It is a single gang switch box and the plug that feeds his tv is fed out of the single gang switch box. Fan appears to run at normal speed maybe a little laggy at start.

Where is the power for the switch fed from? Does a hot wire come into the switch box or the ceiling fan mounting box?

I do hate to ask what appears to be stupid questions but it is kind of important to know how the circuit is wired and there is more than one way to do so.

 

[Eamp]

Where is the power for the switch fed from? Does a hot wire come into the switch box or the ceiling fan mounting box?

I do hate to ask what appears to be stupid questions but it is kind of important to know how the circuit is wired and there is more than one way to do so.

Power for switch is ran down wall from above to the s.g. switch box, it has a switch leg going out of top of box to fan and a hot feed to the plug on wall below.

 

[Eamp]

You could troubleshoot the Neutral issue, or you could isolate your piping like this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2iejrZsXkM :lol:

I also just took a EMF meter that I bought from walmart into his room and it is directly above the water main in basement, the meter goes crazy when I am next to the water main and I went up stairs and can pick up a little emf on the floor of his room also enough to make meter flash red. I am only doing tests so I am not saying this has anything to do with the bedroom fan issue.

 

[al hildenbrand]

​

Not MWBC,​

I hung a ceiling fan in his room. My sons room started to smell like burning and fan was burning hot also instantly within 2 minutes. I replaced the housing with the other fan I bought for my daughters room and same problem as the first. I chalked it up to cheap ceiling fans and returned them and bought more expensive ones. Installed new one in his room and same burning smell and heat. I installed the one in my daughters room which is on a separate circuit and hers will get burning smell after about 5 minutes but not as strong as my sons room.​

I also fed his room from a separate circuit and phase with a piece of romex across the floor, same problem in both rooms. Only combining factor of the 2 rooms is they are the farthest circuits from my panel.​

​

I second Growler's lament re.: stupid questions. We're on the wrong side of the screen to be able to see what informs your knowledge, so we write to clarify via your answers to our stupid questions.​

Down in the panel you have, as stated, two different circuits handling your son and daughter's rooms. ​

1. I presume you have AFCIs in place, which will help with the answer to my next question: Are the neutral and hot of each of the two branch circuits actually going into the sheath of a two-conductor with ground cable?
2. Are the two branch circuit breakers on the SAME electrical "side" (bus) of the panel? Or are they on opposite bus.
3. What is the make and model of the AFCI (if you've still got them in circuit)?

 

[Eamp]

​

I second Growler's lament re.: stupid questions. We're on the wrong side of the screen to be able to see what informs your knowledge, so we write to clarify via your answers to our stupid questions.​

Down in the panel you have, as stated, two different circuits handling your son and daughter's rooms. ​

1. I presume you have AFCIs in place, which will help with the answer to my next question: Are the neutral and hot of each of the two branch circuits actually going into the sheath of a two-conductor with ground cable?
2. Are the two branch circuit breakers on the SAME electrical "side" (bus) of the panel? Or are they on opposite bus.
3. What is the make and model of the AFCI (if you've still got them in circuit)?

They are separate pieces of 14-2 romex that feed each circuit on different phases. They are not fed by a 14-3 romex with a shared neutral. They are on same side of buss. Siemens AFCI. They are both still installed. I put a regular breaker on to test if problem went away and it did not, so I just re installed the afci and moved on.

 

[al hildenbrand]

They are separate pieces of 14-2 romex that feed each circuit on different phases. They are not fed by a 14-3 romex with a shared neutral. They are on same side of buss. Siemens AFCI. They are both still installed. I put a regular breaker on to test if problem went away and it did not, so I just re installed the afci and moved on.

OK.

I'd try shifting one of the AFCIs to an open spot on the SAME bus with the other AFCI and check things out.

 

[growler]

Power for switch is ran down wall from above to the s.g. switch box, it has a switch leg going out of top of box to fan and a hot feed to the plug on wall below.

Don't get much more simple than that, tie all the white wires together and switch the black going to the fan. There should only be a black white and ground in the fan box. Little room for error there.

Does that hot wire coming down to the switch appear to be the home run? You can take is\t loose and see if everything else on the circuit goes dead. If that the home run about the only thing left is the switch it's self. Swap out the switch they are cheap.

 

[Eamp]

Don't get much more simple than that, tie all the white wires together and switch the black going to the fan. There should only be a black white and ground in the fan box. Little room for error there.

Does that hot wire coming down to the switch appear to be the home run? You can take is\t loose and see if everything else on the circuit goes dead. If that the home run about the only thing left is the switch it's self. Swap out the switch they are cheap.

Not the HR. It is a HF. Its the end of the circuit. I have eliminated the switch completely and still same problem. I have to run for a bit.