Ballasts Toasted

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We have a 4 level garage that has enclosed 100watt MH 277v fixtures. The lights are controlled by relay panel that uses a 24V photo cell sytem. There are 40 lights per floor. They were
installed 1 year ago new construction. More than half the lights are having to be replaced due to ballast failure. Ballasts are melted inside fixture, a couple fixtures even blew the plastic lense out. We sent 5 ballasts to manufactor for testing, haven't got results yet. Lot of loose connections on pigtail from feed in to ballast is the only thing I have found so far. I have heard of bad bunches of ballasts from manufactors. Anybody got any insight. Thanks.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Couple years ago I had a high rate of failures with Sola ballast, the fixtures were just over the one year warranty period, it was one of the first times I had ever had that kind of failure of so many fixtures, when digging in to them we found that the Sola's were aluminum cores and the vibration of loose cores was causing the aluminum winding to break or short out, we replaced them with Luma's with copper cores and never had another problem, Luma is Advances MH division.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Are they on MWBCs, or circuits with their own individual neutral ?
 
There are 4 circuits Per floor which all have there own neutral. Everything was run in the slab in smurf tube. That was actually first thing I checked for when we starting messing with these
lights. The melted ballasts are scattered throughout, a couple on each circuit.
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
... Lot of loose connections on pigtail from feed in to ballast is the only thing I have found so far.

If you had mapped the errors in the wiring it might be a sign. I only think it's proportional to the errors?

A ballast will always scream for energy. It doesn't like lower voltage on the supply side.

Shoot, I thought this was going to be a megger story!
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
We had a big box store that had retrofitted the hid's with pulse start ballast, and they had a high failure rate, installed voltage and temp recorders and found the new ballast actually ran cooler than another store that had not been retrofitted. Manufacture supplied replacement ballasts, problem went away. Apparently a bad run of ballast.
 
If you had mapped the errors in the wiring it might be a sign. I only think it's proportional to the errors?

A ballast will always scream for energy. It doesn't like lower voltage on the supply side.

Shoot, I thought this was going to be a megger story!

We had to get some lights replaced with new ballasts due to a safety issue. I plan on doing some megging this week now that we have got some ballasts replaced and bought our self some time. We had a sub pull wire and install fixtures, we roughed in all the slab work. I am very curious if it is a wiring issue and not equipment failure. I have seen plenty of fried ballasts before and the OCP is always tripped. Every fixture that we have replaced so far have been hot including the ones that blew the plastic lens out. I will update with meg results.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Is there a design problem with the luminaire or how it is installed and it is not dissipating enough heat and this is contributing to failure?
 
Is there a design problem with the luminaire or how it is installed and it is not dissipating enough heat and this is contributing to failure?

Lights were installed correctly. Pretty simple design back screws to j-box and light snaps in. The heat issue should not be a problem, these fixtures are meant for outdoor garages. I picked a
couple of the hr's and megged them out...no problems.
 

TNBaer

Senior Member
Location
Oregon
I actually posted a similar problem with Pulse Start Metal Halide several months ago. I had ballasts completely exploding and ruining fixtures. I have not had anyone tell me what's up, but it's not the first time I've heard of problems with Pulse Start technology. I had a customer with 100 Watt Pulse start Metal Halides complaining about short ballast life which I posted about as well.

If you have pulse start ballasts it wouldn't be the first time I have had some major issues with the tech. If you have a parking garage, MH is lame anyway. A 2 Lamp fluorescent T8 will rock the house in that application. Problem solved. :D
 
I actually posted a similar problem with Pulse Start Metal Halide several months ago. I had ballasts completely exploding and ruining fixtures. I have not had anyone tell me what's up, but it's not the first time I've heard of problems with Pulse Start technology. I had a customer with 100 Watt Pulse start Metal Halides complaining about short ballast life which I posted about as well.

If you have pulse start ballasts it wouldn't be the first time I have had some major issues with the tech. If you have a parking garage, MH is lame anyway. A 2 Lamp fluorescent T8 will rock the house in that application. Problem solved. :D

I wish it was that easy...I sent 5 ballasts back to Advance, they are supposed to give me a answer by next Friday...we will see??? Were the breakers tripped on the ballasts you had melt???
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I actually posted a similar problem with Pulse Start Metal Halide several months ago. I had ballasts completely exploding and ruining fixtures. I have not had anyone tell me what's up, but it's not the first time I've heard of problems with Pulse Start technology. I had a customer with 100 Watt Pulse start Metal Halides complaining about short ballast life which I posted about as well.

If you have pulse start ballasts it wouldn't be the first time I have had some major issues with the tech. If you have a parking garage, MH is lame anyway. A 2 Lamp fluorescent T8 will rock the house in that application. Problem solved. :D

Is the ballast exploding or the capacitor? Oil filled capacitors usually have an internal fuse link that opens circuit before pressure gets too high for rupturing - I suppose it can fail. I've seen motor start capacitors literally explode a few times but they usually have no fusing.

I guess I could imagine a more violent failure if supplied by 277 or even 480 than most of what I am used to seeing with 120 or 240. Supplemental fusing can help with this.
 

TNBaer

Senior Member
Location
Oregon
I wish it was that easy...I sent 5 ballasts back to Advance, they are supposed to give me a answer by next Friday...we will see??? Were the breakers tripped on the ballasts you had melt???

The ballasts I was using were Sylvanias. So it seems to be an issue with the technology. I don't know if the breakers tripped or not. It wasn't my facility and I answered basic lighting questions. I do know the fixtures were new(ish), not more than a couple months old.

Is the ballast exploding or the capacitor? Oil filled capacitors usually have an internal fuse link that opens circuit before pressure gets too high for rupturing - I suppose it can fail. I've seen motor start capacitors literally explode a few times but they usually have no fusing.

I guess I could imagine a more violent failure if supplied by 277 or even 480 than most of what I am used to seeing with 120 or 240. Supplemental fusing can help with this.

It was the ballasts. Completely and totally "non-passively failed." I don't know if it was 120 or 277 but I know it wasn't 480v.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
The ballasts I was using were Sylvania's. So it seems to be an issue with the technology. I don't know if the breakers tripped or not. It wasn't my facility and I answered basic lighting questions. I do know the fixtures were new(ish), not more than a couple months old.



It was the ballasts. Completely and totally "non-passively failed." I don't know if it was 120 or 277 but I know it wasn't 480v.

I don't know if I would be so quick to blame the pulse start technology, I have installed hundreds of pulse start fixture over the years and with the exception of a few brands and faulty designs I have very few failures, there are many faulty installation practices that can cause a ballast or lamp to fail, one of the biggest problems I find is no one pays attention to voltage drop, voltage drop is a big problem with HID fixtures, mercury ballast were very forgiving and it didn't bother them much, the same could be said about series ballast HPS, CWA ballast are a whole different story as they will try to maintain a constant current to the lamp and if there is a voltage drop it can and any times does destroy the ballast, also startup time is longer and this adds to the fixture running in start up mode longer which also causes premature lamp failure.

A couple years ago I had an apartment complex that was loosing lamps and ballast on a monthly bases, after checking the circuit voltage with the fixtures in start up mode I realized it was a voltage drop problem, the fixture was fed with 12/2 from the timers and contractors on 120 volt, I rewired them to 240 volts remarking the white neutral with black tape and it cut the current in half, some of these runs were over 200' never got a call back from them for this problem.

Another problem is heat, many manufactures place the lamp in the same compartment as the ballast, and the igniter, one of the reasons I use RUUD's wall packs they have three separated compartments with air space between this keeps the lamp heat away from the ballast and components, not to mention that there mounting method is second to none as it allows you to hang the fixture then wire it up while other brands you have to sit there and hold the fixture while wiring it up which can be a pain if on a extension ladder, another problem with the heat is many of these newer electronic ballast do not like it and fail, you mentioned that the ones you had a problem with were Sylvania's, the only MH ballast from Sylvania I have seen were electronic compact-ballast for ceramic MH lamps in cans, these did have a big problem with the heat when someone mounted them in an insulated ceiling, they were never made for being in an insulated ceiling same as the CFL type cans, even with an 2" thick x 2' insulated box around them they would over heat and fail, universal ballast did develop a 90? C ballast that did allot better and was the only fix I could come up with for a trucking company with a 28' high ceiling over the operations area done by a lighting company, this same trucking company has 320 watt RUDD wall packs all the way around it and I have only replaced 2 lamps in 6 years and 0 ballast, this is the kind of results I have been used to on lighting systems I have installed, I'm not saying there are problems out there but once you recognize the problems you will know what to look out for and know what the solution is to eliminate the failures, whether it is sticking with certain brands to making sure you wont have voltage drop problems to watching out for fixtures that put allot of heat on the ballast.

Here are a couple links that can be a good read about the development of MH technology

Venture Lighting
I made a mistake in post 2 as Luma is who I use for T-5 lamps and ballast Venture is a division of Advance and the owner came from GE lighting who holds many patents on MH development and designs and metal halide is all they do.

National Research Lighting Center
Be sure to click on the next arrow at the bottom of each page to read the whole publication

I'll also try to dig up a trouble shooting PDF file I have from Advance that repeats much of what I have said above as what causes failures, once you understand what causes the problems you will like the results that pulse start MH can give you to offer to your customers. I have many customers that now swear by them and are great repeat customers because of the performance of pulse start technology if installed correctly<<< thats the big IF, Oh there is one fixture I don't like, it is the 100 watt PS-MH inground flood that many use to light up flag poles, two problems with them, water infiltration and heat buildup on the ballast, they do have a high failure rate problems, even if they do look great ;)

Ok book ended:lol:
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
I found the Advance trouble shooting guide but they are to large to upload to the forum, send me a PM with your e-mall and I'll send you both the HID trouble shooting guide and the fluorescent light trouble shooting guide, both are very well written and when printed and kept on the truck is a good tool to have with you, both are from advance.
 
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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Voltage drop is a big killer of the old style magnetic ballast for floresent lamps too. I had a customer frying on average of 10 ballast a week. The poco had run 4/0 al a good 400' to a 400 amp service that was reaching a peak 380 amps during the summer. The voltage was around 95 volts at high noon every day. Since they were about to double the size of the store, I met with the poco engineers and was able to get them to upsize their end to parrallel 350 kcmil, and a much larger transformer for the new 1200 amp service. The customer no longer had the severe ballast burn out problem.
 

the blur

Senior Member
Location
cyberspace
I've seen bad runs of ballasts. All failed within 6 months. Talking about 100 ballasts in one location. The manufacturer will cover labor sometimes if you want to go through paperwork hell.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It was the ballasts. Completely and totally "non-passively failed." I don't know if it was 120 or 277 but I know it wasn't 480v.

Heat sounds like a good candidate for the trouble. Outside of improper voltage there is a design problem and it may be with the luminaire and not necessarily the installation.

It doesn't need to trip circuit breaker. It could start as an insulation failure from winding to winding resulting in even more heat resulting in even more winding to winding shorts. The thing can catastrophically fail without ever drawing enough current to trip the circuit breaker.

I wouldn't blame pulse start technology - it is not that new. HPS have always used pulse start technology.
 
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