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AFCI requirements VS new appliances

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    AFCI requirements VS new appliances

    The issues many have with AFCI protection is due to arcing caused by new appliances (Miicrowaves, refrigerators, ect). Most all articles associated with AFCI explain the protection is for the branch circuit wiring that may have damage due to damaged installation or maybe rodent damage. Some mention pinched cords that weaken over time.
    So, is AFCI supposed to be protection from listed & labeled new appliances that cause fault through operation?
    If so what is the solution other that telling manufacture there product though is listed & labeled is not able to be use due to NEC regulations?

    this is happening to a brand of microwave installed throughout an employee housing complex
    CircuitRyder --- Unfortunately not all good ideas are code enforceable.

    #2
    I hate to ask but did you just crawl out from under a rock?

    Manufacturers were asked maybe 25-30 years ago to come up with something to protect from arcing faults.

    When they finally came up with something that was somewhat close to doing that they pushed hard to get it into code even though it still had problems, this so they can begin to profit from their efforts.

    All the problems left behind, yes they maybe have fixed a few of them, but they left the consumer as part of their testing lab, and the contractor as the guinea pig to do all the dirty work, much of it at his own expense.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

    Comment


      #3
      You should give us the specifics. What brand and model of microwave? What brand and type of AFCI protection? What frequency is the occurrence?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by kwired View Post
        I hate to ask but did you just crawl out from under a rock?

        Manufacturers were asked maybe 25-30 years ago to come up with something to protect from arcing faults.

        When they finally came up with something that was somewhat close to doing that they pushed hard to get it into code even though it still had problems, this so they can begin to profit from their efforts.

        All the problems left behind, yes they maybe have fixed a few of them, but they left the consumer as part of their testing lab, and the contractor as the guinea pig to do all the dirty work, much of it at his own expense.

        Kwire - don't be such an a-s -- 45 years in the trade as worker - contractor- inspector now dealing with the elephant in the room - NEC is not a bible & NFPA should be more responsible to reality & not lobbyist. This site is supposed to be for information not arrogance.
        CircuitRyder --- Unfortunately not all good ideas are code enforceable.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by MAC702 View Post
          You should give us the specifics. What brand and model of microwave? What brand and type of AFCI protection? What frequency is the occurrence?
          GE is the microwave @ 700 watts - breakers not sure if it is the 50/60 cycle or 60 cycle markings. Sad part is that NEC says keep protection cause it is in a kitchen.
          CircuitRyder --- Unfortunately not all good ideas are code enforceable.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by mwm1752 View Post
            ... 45 years in the trade as worker - contractor- inspector now dealing with the elephant in the room - NEC is not a bible & NFPA should be more responsible to reality & not lobbyist. This site is supposed to be for information not arrogance.
            Ok, so you do understand the AFCI debacle. Sorry about the arrogance but we are as p***** off as you are over it.

            NEC is not a bible & NFPA should be more responsible to reality & not lobbyist
            I agree 100%. I've said before that I would like to see some other organizations that have not been compromised by manufacturers write Code books. There should be alternatives to the NEC.

            -Hal

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by hbiss View Post
              Ok, so you do understand the AFCI debacle. Sorry about the arrogance but we are as p***** off as you are over it.



              I agree 100%. I've said before that I would like to see some other organizations that have not been compromised by manufacturers write Code books. There should be alternatives to the NEC.

              -Hal
              Like the Michigan Electrical Code?

              Cheers and Stay Safe,

              Marky the Sparky

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by mwm1752 View Post
                GE is the microwave @ 700 watts - breakers not sure if it is the 50/60 cycle or 60 cycle markings. Sad part is that NEC says keep protection cause it is in a kitchen.
                I will bet it's much cheaper to change the microwaves than do anything to the electrical system. You may even be able to get GE to refund some of your money.
                Cheers and Stay Safe,

                Marky the Sparky

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by MAC702 View Post
                  You should give us the specifics. What brand and model of microwave? What brand and type of AFCI protection? What frequency is the occurrence?
                  Originally posted by mwm1752 View Post
                  GE is the microwave @ 700 watts - breakers not sure if it is the 50/60 cycle or 60 cycle markings. Sad part is that NEC says keep protection cause it is in a kitchen.
                  "frequency" meant: how often does any one microwave trip its AFCI? Do you have a guess or estimate?

                  And, about the "AFCI", who manufactures it? Is it a dual function Arc Fault / Ground Fault CI or just a combination-type. How old do you estimate the breakers are? ( A couple weeks, or a couple years . . . ?) Understand, there are now at least five DIFFERENT behaviors that the various types of AFCIs exhibit, so, for those of us on the other side of your screen, that can't see what you are thinking off, we have to ask for names in order to answer with cogent information.
                  Another Al in Minnesota

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Out here on the left coast (So Cal) our company has put in many hundreds of AFCI circuits/circuit breakers since the requirements were first introduced in the NEC in the 1999 edition. We are a full code cycle behind out here (currently on the 2014 edition) so we had the benefit of learning some things about them before the requirements took hold here. There was a very short learning curve on the first few projects we used them on and we rarely experience problems these days. I don't know whether the AFCI technology is effective or worthwhile but I do know that we have very little heartburn over the requirements as far as callbacks are concerned. The biggest adjustments have been how we needed to rethink how we laid out the circuitry on home wiring as the requirements evolved.

                    I have been in the trade long enough to remember similar issues and complaints with GFCI requirements, especially when they were first required in dwelling unit garages where the old freezer was, or with sump pumps. Where we are about 70% of the homes are part time residences that may get occupied on the weekends, etc. If the refrigerator or freezer is on a GFCI/AFCI protected outlet or circuit and it trips, and nobody is around to notice for several weeks.............. So frozen fish, when left to thaw for a few weeks can turn a freezer into a pretty nasty place. Warm beer is a non-starter as well for some folks.
                    Bob on the left coast.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by mwm1752 View Post
                      Kwire - don't be such an a-s -- 45 years in the trade as worker - contractor- inspector now dealing with the elephant in the room - NEC is not a bible & NFPA should be more responsible to reality & not lobbyist. This site is supposed to be for information not arrogance.
                      Well AFAIK you are an inspector, I think you know what you are supposed to enforce (whether you agree with what is written or not).

                      You likely also know it may be a PITA for the contractor and/or appliance vendor, but there is nothing written that allows anything different, other option may be different brand or updated version of what is currently in use, different brand of course leads to other things needing changed because those others are not going to be listed for use in what is existing.
                      I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                      Comment

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