AFCI requirements VS new appliances

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tortuga said:
Whats the make and model of the microwave? Did i miss that?

To be sure its the AFCI and not the microwave or the wiring
I would fist disconnect all the end devices, the use an insulation tester, and run the same test done on manufactured homes and RV's (its in the NEC I believe).
That finds pinched wires, wet wires, screws and tight staples.
Then I replace the AFCI with a GFCI or even better a (Class B) 30ma GFCI breaker.
Here is one made by Siemens:
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/products/us2:qe115/brkr-qe2-gfci-30ma-1p-120v-15a-10ka?pid=899828&mlfb=US2:QE115&mfn=ps&lc=en-US

If your 'Class B' GFCI trips you actually have faulty microwave problem.
If the problem goes away try a adding a AFCI receptacle so just the microwave is AFCI protected.
Post the results back here.

I also have used a data logger to log the equipment ground, hot and neutral for a few days.
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That is all fine and dandy, but who pays for all this, especially if you find nothing wrong? 99.99% of the time probably the contractor(n)

Add: even if the manufacturer/supplier decides to give you a replacement AFCI that has been updated and doesn't trip, you still put some time and other materials into this and will not be reimbursed.
 
kwired said:
That is all fine and dandy, but who pays for all this, especially if you find nothing wrong? 99.99% of the time probably the contractor(n)

Add: even if the manufacturer/supplier decides to give you a replacement AFCI that has been updated and doesn't trip, you still put some time and other materials into this and will not be reimbursed.
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Its probably different for everyone, people get really upset when what they hired someone to do doesn't work.
Then angis list, yelp, facebook, insurance, and lastly the state and lawyers get involved.
Then neutral 3rd party people are needed.
Then our phone rings.
Our average AFCI diagnostic runs about $400, that includes no parts or fixes nor travel time.

In the state of Oregon legally the contractors board requires home builders to provide a working installation and a warranty on new homes and possibly large remodels.
The legal people uses a term 'due diligence' allot, I stay out of all that.

I had an AFCI problem we got hired to solve for a builder out in a really beautiful remote area. He was bragging about how he 'pulled all the wire' for his electrician and they always did everything to code. Upon removing some drywall in the problem area I found 'someone' had stapled all the romex on the short edge.
There was another one out on the coast where the siding contractor 'adjusted' some receptacles so they lined up perfectly all he did was 'move the outlet a little', AFCI's would randomly trip all over the 27 unit complex until this kinda stuff was corrected:


20160703_121106.jpg

I am not defending AFCI's but I havent run into a AFCI problem I cant solve.
I will admit my solution has involved the purchase of a new vacuum cleaner for people on on occasion. :)
 
My advice is educating ourselves to the technology, and the best way to do it is via the ex-nema afci task force chair, Dr Joe Engel's 2012 IEEE paper>>>
read it front to back, and back to front, spread it around, ask questions & i'll guarantee you will come away with a better understanding of how to diagnose in the field , a better understanding of the fundamental components ability vs manufacturers claims, an enlightened objectivity towards the joint partnership's history foisting the technology upon our trade , and last but not least how they passed 'combination' through UL

You will never see the 'powers that be' the same

~RJ~
 
The company owner’s dad wired his own house, and had an arc fault breaker that would not set. Pulled the wires off the breaker, ground and neutral were reading continuity, so he had them shorted somewhere. He said I could tear out as much Sheetrock as I wanted to find it! Put my trusty Amprobe circuit tracer and battery on it, traced the wire thru the wall around the room until I lost signal. Cut a 4”x4” square out of the Sheetrock, and pulled out a staple the insulators shot through it. Problem solved!
 
hillbilly1 said:
The company owner’s dad wired his own house, and had an arc fault breaker that would not set. Pulled the wires off the breaker, ground and neutral were reading continuity, so he had them shorted somewhere. He said I could tear out as much Sheetrock as I wanted to find it! Put my trusty Amprobe circuit tracer and battery on it, traced the wire thru the wall around the room until I lost signal. Cut a 4”x4” square out of the Sheetrock, and pulled out a staple the insulators shot through it. Problem solved!
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Cool story and good work but all that proves is the ground fault portion of the AFCI works, there is still no proof that they do anything to stop arcing that may lead to a fire.
 
true......
did a manufactured home a while ago, noodles all tied together, archy's tripped as soon as they were turned on
got into it w/the manufacturer about it too, i'm fairly sure i'm off their xmas list now....:devilish: ~RJ~
 
ActionDave said:
Cool story and good work but all that proves is the ground fault portion of the AFCI works, there is still no proof that they do anything to stop arcing that may lead to a fire.
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My opinion as well, and don't like the fact there are occasional appliances out there that have nothing wrong with them that still don't play well with AFCI's.

Most issues I have had to try to solve myself have been ground fault issues, but am not looking forward to telling a customer an appliance isn't compatible for some reason. Gives more of an impression to that the AFCI is what is not compatible, yet I am supposed to fix the thing and yet still comply with code.
 
I got a customer with a brand new refrigerator tripping 3 brand new Seimens Dual Function breakers. It holds on GFCI only . He wasn't really to keen on me telling him there is no relief from the requirement.. I've taken to calling them "Myfaults " because that's how everyone, including the manufacturers react, as if it's my fault .
 
Seems like a good point to ask. I've been told that 210.12(A)(5) was interpreted that if no other outlets provided and using MC (or other listed wireing method here listed) and is continuous from panel to the dedicated outlet, no AFCI was required. Is this true? Could be a viable workaround to neusence tipping items? What have others heard?
 
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