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Grounded Conductor - Switch Leg

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    Grounded Conductor - Switch Leg

    Single phase 60A 240V circuit passes through a metallic J-box with EMT conduit. Circuit needs to have a disconnect added at the location of the j-box. If a 60A A/C disconnect is installed with a 1" nipple to the j-box and the two ungrounded conductors routed in-and-out through that nipple and landed so as to complete a disconnecting means, is there a code violation in this design? The grounded conductor and grounding conductor will not enter the disconnect. (Grounding by means of raceway metal only) I cannot locate a rule prohibiting this. Just seems a bit dicey to me though.
    Facilities Electrical Engineer
    Quando Omni Flunkus Moratati

    #2
    The neutral doesn't have to be routed with the phases.

    There was a similar discussion at [COLOR=#0066cc]https://forums.mikeholt.com/forum/active-forums/nec/10180-neutrals-and-lighting-contactors?t=61736[/COLOR]
    The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain

    Comment


      #3
      There is no requirement to even route the neutral with the two hots if it is not used. If you are using the conduit as the EGC it is being routed along with the circuit conductors by nature of the circuit conductors being enclosed within the conduit.
      Bob

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by RD35 View Post
        .... (Grounding by means of raceway metal only) I cannot locate a rule prohibiting this. Just seems a bit dicey to me though.
        There is still time to free yourself from the clutches of The Cult of the Green Wire. A metallic raceway is more than up to the task of being an effective fault clearing path.
        If Billy Idol is on your playlist go reevaluate your life.

        Comment


          #5
          I'm leaning towards it being required to be brought thru the nipple with the ungrounded conductors. We had a similar discussion a few years ago:

          https://forums.mikeholt.com/forum/ac...connect-switch
          Rob

          Moderator

          All responses based on the 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by infinity View Post
            I'm leaning towards it being required to be brought thru the nipple with the ungrounded conductors. We had a similar discussion a few years ago:

            https://forums.mikeholt.com/forum/ac...connect-switch
            This sounds like a straight 240V load though.
            If Billy Idol is on your playlist go reevaluate your life.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by ActionDave View Post

              This sounds like a straight 240V load though.
              I don't know the OP said "the grounded conductor and grounding conductor will not enter the disconnect."
              Rob

              Moderator

              All responses based on the 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by ActionDave View Post
                There is still time to free yourself from the clutches of The Cult of the Green Wire. A metallic raceway is more than up to the task of being an effective fault clearing path.
                think you misunderstood, he has no issue with using raceway as ground, is questioning need to have the grounded conductor brought to the disconnect.

                Even if this circuit utilizes a grounded conductor, there shouldn't be a need to bring it to the disconnect if conductors are entering and then leaving same raceway again (a switch loop so to speak).

                Switches controlling lighting that are on circuits utilizing the grounded conductor do require grounded conductor at the switch or the ability to pull the grounded conductor there if it should ever be needed, which is somewhat newer requirement. Only applies to lighting that utilizes grounded conductor though.
                I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by kwired View Post

                  think you misunderstood, he has no issue with using raceway as ground, is questioning need to have the grounded conductor brought to the disconnect.....
                  This is what he said

                  .....is there a code violation in this design? The grounded conductor and grounding conductor will not enter the disconnect.
                  If Billy Idol is on your playlist go reevaluate your life.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by ActionDave View Post

                    This is what he said
                    That is a part of what he said, I don't believe he is questioning use of raceway for equipment grounding, was just explaining there is no grounding conductor pulled through it, I think the main question was concerning whether there needed to be a grounded conductor in the disconnect and he just wanted to make it clear there was nothing in the raceway except for ungrounded conductors.
                    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Not that it matters, but, I'm picturing a wire type grounded and EGC pulled to the J-box, there's just not a wire type Grounded or EGC pulled from the J-box through the nipple into the disconnect.

                      JAP>

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by kwired View Post
                        I think the main question was concerning whether there needed to be a grounded conductor in the disconnect and he just wanted to make it clear there was nothing in the raceway except for ungrounded conductors.
                        That was my impression as well. The question is does the nipple into the switch require the EGC and neutral conductor to be brought into it as indicated in 300.4(B)?

                        300.4(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of
                        the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor
                        and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding con-
                        ductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxil-
                        iary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or
                        cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with
                        300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).
                        Rob

                        Moderator

                        All responses based on the 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by infinity View Post

                          That was my impression as well. The question is does the nipple into the switch require the EGC and neutral conductor to be brought into it as indicated in 300.4(B)?

                          300.4(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of
                          the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor
                          and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding con-
                          ductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxil-
                          iary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or
                          cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with
                          300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).
                          First the OP's circuit doesn't have or need a neutral conductor to function.

                          Second, though it may not be clearly stated in there, I think the intention of this section is to reduce magnetic effects. We certainly don't need to bring a neutral to a typical wall switch (until they changed rule some for possibility of control devices that may need it) because if you have line in and line out from a switch in same raceway or cable the magnetic effects cancel each other if both (or all four in OP's application)

                          The EGC still needs to run with conductors or be enclosing them, it has no magnetic effects until there is fault current being carried on it, but they want it to be with the other conductors or enclosing them for same magnetic effect reasons during a fault condition.

                          I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            300.4(B) simply requires that the grounded conductor (IF USED) be run together in the same raceway as the other associated conductors. You can't run it separately.

                            You don't have to run the neutral if you don't need it.

                            -Hal

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by hbiss View Post
                              300.4(B) simply requires that the grounded conductor (IF USED) be run together in the same raceway as the other associated conductors. You can't run it separately.

                              You don't have to run the neutral if you don't need it.

                              -Hal
                              I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                              Comment

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