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    hot tub equipotential

    Customer wants a new hot tub wired. He has it placed on an existing concrete slab(patio). How does ther equipotential ground grid play here?

    Thanks
    Shelco
    Last edited by shelco; 09-29-06, 05:19 PM. Reason: SP

    #2
    Check w/ AHJ. I'm sure homeowner will not want their slab torn out. I should add that code is code. You can wire it to code or walk away from it.
    Last edited by rcarroll; 09-29-06, 06:52 PM.
    Ron

    Comment


      #3
      Doesn't Apply

      .
      680.26 is for swimming pools permantley installed.

      If it were meant for hotubs installed outdoors then 680.42 [B] wouldnt state otherwise.

      680.42 Outdoor Installations
      A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

      (B) Bonding Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted. The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26

      There are several requirements for bonding in 680.42 but the dreaded grid isn't among them. Plus 680.42 allows other relaxed wiring methods etc. and keep in mind a residential hotub is required to have GFCI anyway.

      Having said that, it would be to your advantage to make sure your AHJ is on your same page. Give him/her a call and verify, that is assuming your area follows/adopts the NEC.
      Last edited by Gmack; 09-30-06, 01:30 PM.

      Comment


        #4
        Gmack, I offer to you this excerpt from the ROP leading to the 2005 NEC:

        17-136 Log #1700 NEC-P17
        (680-42(B))
        Final Action: Reject
        Submitter: Gregory L. Olson, Public Service Electric & Gas Company
        Recommendation:
        Revise text as follows:
        (B) Bonding. All metallic parts of the hot tub structure, including the reinforcing metal of the hot tub shell, coping stones, and deck,
        shall be bonded in accordance to 680.26 that would otherwise also apply to pools installed outdoors. Bonding by metal-to-metal
        mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted. The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required
        to be bonded as required in 680.26.
        Substantiation:
        Numerous instances have been encountered where voltage gradients have been found to exist between a properly grounded and
        bonded packaged or self-contained spa or hot tub and the concrete or paver stone surface upon which it is installed. Investigations of
        such conditions typically reveal that the concrete or paver stone surface has not been bonded to the spa or hot tub equipment.
        Consideration of a spa or hot tub as a variation of a permanently installed swimming pool would suggest that the same grounding and
        bonding practices apply. However, the requirements to properly bond the reinforcing metal of a deck surface when installing a spa or
        hot tub is not explicit enough in the code.
        Panel Meeting Action: Reject
        Panel Statement:
        Since this is an outdoor location, it is already covered in 680.26.

        Number Eligible to Vote: 11
        Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11

        Comment


          #5
          George

          .
          Why dont you elaborate? Are you saying 680.42 is in error?

          Furthermore, what about GFCI on tubs? How would they allow gradients that are hazordous to life? I have wired hundreds of tubs and never had a person/customer electricuted and many/all of the tubs were outside locations.

          So I say, "Whats the point" or what is your point. I would add that the source you cited was rejected after all.

          George, as a trade, if we continue down a road of "The sky is falling" approach, then put a grid under the driveway and lawn under some percieved gradient problem[s].

          Do away with GFCI's

          Not flamming, just not seeing something thats broke, so why fix it.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Gmack
            .
            Why dont you elaborate? Are you saying 680.42 is in error?
            No, I am saying that the CMP believes that 680.26 applies to Hot Tubs, and as worded, I agree with them. Nothing in Part IV modifies the requirements of 680.26.

            Let's back up:

            Originally posted by Gmack in Post #3
            If it were meant for hotubs installed outdoors then 680.42 [b] wouldnt state otherwise.

            680.42 Outdoor Installations
            A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

            (B) Bonding Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted. The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.
            What (B) is saying is, 680.26 applies. We have to specifically exclude metal bands and hoops from the equipotential bonding required in 680.26 because 680.26 requires those items to be included.

            What's notably absent from the exclusions in 680.42(B) is the big taco, the e-bonding grid.

            Furthermore, what about GFCI on tubs? How would they allow gradients that are hazordous to life? I have wired hundreds of tubs and never had a person/customer electricuted and many/all of the tubs were outside locations.
            The e-bonding grid is also to protect from stray voltages which would be present whether the source GFCI for the hot tub / pool is tripped or not.

            Originally posted by Gmack
            So I say, "Whats the point" or what is your point. I would add that the source you cited was rejected after all.
            It was rejected based on the fact that the panel regarded it as redundant, because 680.26 already applied to outdoor hot tubs.

            Pretty wild, huh? Nothing personal taken, I didn't write the damned thing.

            Comment


              #7
              Hey George! What is the CHTTC in your signature?
              Ron

              Comment


                #8
                Chairman, Holier Than Thou Committee.

                Comment


                  #9
                  .
                  George, I disagree.

                  680.42 lists all "things" to be bonded and never does it cite or describe a grid to be included.

                  I could have and indeed have had tubs installed on wood decks above grade.
                  Do we need a grid for an appliance or a GFCI?

                  If an exception was made in B, then why?

                  Tubs are not permanetly installed and are not required [to date] to have grids as per 680.26.

                  George, yes, I see your point about the panel, but all that shows is a "government job" cluster.

                  Based on language alone we could argue but in the real world a tub and a swimming pool are diffrent animals and in my opinion, again, a tub has a GFCI and everything around it is required to have GFCI and or, bonding,.

                  There are many inspectors/members here. Maybe they will respond.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I am not an inspector but I agree with George's posts.

                    The grid is required.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Mike Holt

                      .

                      Article 680 Excerpts from Holt article:

                      Swimming Pools, Spas, Hot Tubs, Fountains, and Similar Installations

                      680.26 Equipotential Bonding

                      Change requires an equipotential bonding grid be installed to reduce voltage gradients in and around permanently installed pools, outdoor spas, and outdoor hot tubs.



                      (B) Bonded Parts. The following parts of a permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub must be bonded to a equipotential bonding grid of the type specified in 680.26(C).

                      Author’s Comment: See 680.42(B) for the bonding methods permitted for outdoor spas and hot tubs.

                      (1) Metallic Parts of Structure. All metallic parts of the water structure, including the reinforcing metal of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub shell and deck, must be bonded to the equipotential grid. The usual steel tie wires are considered suitable for bonding the reinforcing steel together for this purpose. Welding or special clamping is not required, but the tie wires must be made tight. Figure 680-4

                      Where the reinforcing steel of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub shell and deck are encapsulated with a nonconductive compound or if it’s not available, an equipotential grid constructed in accordance with 680.26(C) must be installed to mask stray voltage gradients.

                      (2) Underwater Lighting. All metal forming shells for underwater permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub luminaires and speakers.
                      (3) Metal Fittings. Metal fittings within or attached to the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub structure, such as ladders and handrails.
                      (4) Electrical Equipment. Metal parts of electrical equipment associated with the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub water circulating system, such as water heaters and pump motors. Accessible metal parts of listed equipment incorporating a system of double insulation and providing a means for grounding internal metal parts are not required to be directly bonded to the equipotential grid.
                      (5) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts, as well as metallic surfaces of electrical equipment, must be bonded to the equipotential grid if located:
                      (1) Within 5 ft horizontally of the inside walls of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub, and
                      (2) Within 12 ft measured vertically above the maximum water level of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub, or any observation stands, towers, or platforms or any diving structures.

                      My 2 Cents .Setting down a appliance on a concrete or otherwise deck does not constitute as "permanently installed" as per the OP. or NEC or Holt.

                      Think about it.



                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Last edited by Gmack; 09-30-06, 06:12 PM.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        My 2 Cents .Setting down a appliance on a concrete or otherwise deck does not constitute as "permanently installed" as per the OP. or NEC or Holt.

                        Think about it.

                        If the tub is hard wired, IMO it's permanently installed.
                        Rob

                        Moderator

                        All responses based on the 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Infinity

                          .
                          The perm "installed" part in the NEC goes into "below" grade with all sort of grid and or structure including pool walls, pavement walkways, ladders, etc on and and on it goes.

                          How is a hardwired appliance permanent?

                          680 allows for a cord and plug connected hot tub.

                          Now can we or would we provide a grid for this set up? Why?

                          It is not permanent. Yes?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Gmack
                            The perm "installed" part in the NEC goes into "below" grade with all sort of grid and or structure including pool walls, pavement walkways, ladders, etc on and and on it goes.
                            Could you post the definition of "Permanently-Installed Spa or Hot Tub", I'm not finding it.

                            Looking at the book I'm looking at, a Hot Tub looks permanent regardless of it's means of connection.

                            Spa or Hot Tub. A hydromassage pool, or tub for recreational or therapeutic use, not located in health care facili-ties, designed for immersion of users, and usually having a filter, heater, and motor-driven blower. It may be installed indoors or outdoors, on the ground or supporting structure, or in the ground or supporting structure. Generally, a spa or hot tub is not designed or intended to have its contents drained or discharged after each use.
                            I'd say the last sentence in the definition emanates a certain degree of permanance surrounding a hot tub. Otherwise, it would likely be a storable pool.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Gmack
                              (From Mike Holt article)
                              Where the reinforcing steel of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub shell and deck are encapsulated with a nonconductive compound or if it?s not available, an equipotential grid constructed in accordance with 680.26(C) must be installed to mask stray voltage gradients.
                              So, does this information that you've posted lead you to believe that a permanently installed hot tub requires an equipotential bonding grid be installed?

                              Comment

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