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  • fishin' electrician
    replied
    I don't have or need an '08 code book but in the '05 definition for branch circuit it says: [COLOR=Black]"[/COLOR]the [COLOR=Black]final overcurrent device [COLOR=Red]protecting the circuit[COLOR=Black]"[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Red][COLOR=Black], so unless the definition has changed in the '08, I stand behind my view.
    [/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]

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  • Dennis Alwon
    replied
    The whole think is absurd. If a non fused disco is installed a bare egc is okay inside the house but if a breaker is installed in the disco then an insulated egc must be used. How ridiculous is that?

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  • LarryFine
    replied
    Originally posted by fishin' electrician View Post
    How can a 70 be the final overcurrent device when there's a 60 ahead of it?
    It's final even if it's not the lowest.

    I think my 'supplemental OCP' thought needs further investigation; not everyone has agreed with me yet.

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  • LarryFine
    replied
    Originally posted by rikthejman View Post
    Did one with 50A and 6/3 NM out through soffit block into PVC sleeve down to disconnect.
    That is non-compliant on two points:

    1. The NM is not permitted outdoors, even inside a conduit.

    2. Any cable with a bare EGC is not permitted outdoors.

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  • fishin' electrician
    replied
    Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
    It is an overcurrent device, is it not? I don't think the code addresses what you are trying to do but I may be wrong.
    I don't see how it can be the final OCD when it's not even suitable protection for the conductors. Just how I see it.

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  • Dennis Alwon
    replied
    Originally posted by fishin' electrician View Post
    How can a 70 be the final overcurrent device when there's a 60 ahead of it?
    It is an overcurrent device, is it not? I don't think the code addresses what you are trying to do but I may be wrong.

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  • fishin' electrician
    replied
    Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
    How would that change things? I believe you would need a fuseless disco.
    How can a 70 be the final overcurrent device when there's a 60 ahead of it?

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  • Dennis Alwon
    replied
    Originally posted by fishin' electrician View Post
    That's how I feel about it. In fact, if an inspector gave me a hard time about it, I'd move the GFCI Breaker to the main panel and put a 70 in the disco.
    How would that change things? I believe you would need a fuseless disco.

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  • fishin' electrician
    replied
    Originally posted by LarryFine View Post
    Can't the second breaker be considered "supplemental" OCP, and allow the entire circuit to be a BC?
    That's how I feel about it. In fact, if an inspector gave me a hard time about it, I'd move the GFCI Breaker to the main panel and put a 70 in the disco.

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  • david
    replied

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  • david
    replied
    You can argue the need for the insulated equipment ground, you can argue if there is a need to oversize and equipment ground. But both are to create what is commonly referred to as an ensured ground fault path. The same as any equipment grounding system does.

    Any time you insulated a conductor you are preventing an unintentional contact with that conductor.

    When you oversize an equipment ground you are lowering the effects that heat and the overall resistance of the conductor.

    It’s that whole concept of doing something extra when the body’s resistance is brought to its lowest values. (soaked in un-pure water)

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  • Greg1707
    replied
    Background information

    There are a number of confusing issues regarding hot tub installations.

    Here are some issues:

    Equipment grounding conductor: bare or coverd? Why should it make a difference whether covered or not depending on whether it is a feeder or branch circuit conductor?

    Size of conductors: I just installed a 50 amp hot tub that the manufacturer required four #6 wires from panel to tub. Why did this tub require a #6 egc? Why on earth did it require a #6 neutral? I assume the neutral only carried the unbalanced load. There is nothing on the tub that could have required a wire that size!

    Does anyone know the theory behind these requirements? Knowing the theory would help us understand the requirements!

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  • iwire
    replied
    I have merged the two threads from the same OP asking the same question.

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  • rbwsparky
    replied
    We do all hot tub installs with gfi breaker at main or sub, run conduit and pull thhn to a pullout disco within 10 ft of tub and use liquidtite fnc to tub. All tubs i've installed require fullsize ground. All inspectors in my area like it installed this way. They would fail it with romex.

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  • ivsenroute
    replied
    Branch Circuit. The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).
    If the disco is an OCPD then that is where the branch circuit begins and the between the panel and the disco is a feeder. If you put a non-fused disco in place then you need an insulated conductor from the OCPD in the panel as the branch circuit now starts in the panel and not the disco.

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