Led lamps

[Fuse1]

WE are currently looking into replacing t-8 lamps and ballast with an led self containted lamp. Im told the ballast gets removed and the power wires are to be connected directly to the tomb stones. For example, on a 277v application , it would seem to me a danger might exist, what if the tomb stone were cracked or the lamp on one end didnt quite make it into the scocket. It seems to me it would either trip the whole circuit or blow a hole in the end of the fixture. What happens if joe the maint. guy installs a regular lamp? I called the manufacture, they said they were never asked this before.

Anyone have any experience or advice on this?

 

[charlie]

I am betting that the UL Listing would be violated.

Welcome to the forum. :smile:

 

[iwire]

A typical lamp socket like this is rated 600 volts, 660 watts.

http://www.onestopbuy.com/390-1W-4493.asp

 

[Fuse1]

Yes the socket is rated 600 v. How often have we all taken out a lamp and the scoket cracks or turns brittle? this would be my main concern

 

[wasabiian]

Do LED replacements for T8's really pencil out? They cost a ton, are they as reliable as they claim? will they really burn for 50,000 hours? who's guaranteeing them and for how long? I dont know anyone who's done this job with any success. I'm Leary about them can you tell? I'd love to hear discenting oppinions because this LED thing is new to me.

 

[resistance]

will they really burn for 50,000 hours?

I'm sure the manufacture is putting their money on you not tracking the time. Then again, there "may" be many factors that come into play. Example: The environment the LED's where installed in.

who's guaranteeing them and for how long?

If you can prove the LED's didn't hold up to the claim, then the manufacture is responsible.

 

[iMuse97]

I'm sure the manufacture is putting their money on you not tracking the time. Then again, there "may" be many factors that come into play. Example: The environment the LED's where installed in. If you can prove the LED's didn't hold up to the claim, then the manufacture is responsible.

If the manufacturer is still there. If GE or Philips or another big guy doesn't make it, I'm probably not interested.

 

[jdsmith]

If the manufacturer is still there. If GE or Philips or another big guy doesn't make it, I'm probably not interested.

EXACTLY! There are a lot of startup companies selling high priced LED lamps and it is doubtful that those companies will have the funds to support their products if they have issues in 5-10 years. I have talked with GE people about their LED lamp offerings and the fact that they have very few should be taken as a sign - they aren't willing to put their name on something without a certain amount of testing and confidence in the product. The one company I would probably trust is Cree, they have been in the LED business longer than many other companies and have an R&D department, they aren't just marketing some junk.

Crouse-Hinds also has some hazardous location LED fixtures that I would trust since a legitimate company is standing behind the product. They're just pricey enough that it's hard to justify them unless it's in a location that costs $200+ in labor to change a bulb.

 

[tom baker]

I would caution you to do some research first. Are we there yet for LED lighting? Yes and no. There are no standards and a lot of poor products.
I have seen LED Par 30s at Costco, but no information on lumens, or life.

This is a good place to start, the DOE SSL home page
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/ssl/

Their Caliper program evaluates SSL
"Solid-state lighting (SSL) technologies today are undergoing rapid change and improvements, and products arriving on the market exhibit a wide range of performance. There is a need for reliable, unbiased product performance information to foster the developing market for high-performance SSL products."
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/ssl/caliper.html

There are a lot of good LED applications, I don't feel that replacing T-8s is one of them. Why? The T-8 market is huge, very mature and good products from many mfgs.

 

[catchtwentytwo]

If the manufacturer is still there. If GE or Philips or another big guy doesn't make it, I'm probably not interested.

Amen. I remember when electronic ballasts first went mainstream and the market was flooded with "off-brand & off-shore" products. I'd suspect the same will happen with LEDs.

 

[wireguru]

Yes the socket is rated 600 v. How often have we all taken out a lamp and the scoket cracks or turns brittle? this would be my main concern

shouldnt be changing the lamp live

 

[hurk27]

I would be suspect that these haven't gone through any UL listing, I can see many problems down the road where someone tries just to stick one of these in a regular ballasted fixture. I think this is why there should be some kind of socket standard developed for this newer technology, they should have a new socket to not allow interchangeability, unless it can be powered by an existing ballast without changing anything.

 

[iMuse97]

I would be suspect that these haven't gone through any UL listing, I can see many problems down the road where someone tries just to stick one of these in a regular ballasted fixture. I think this is why there should be some kind of socket standard developed for this newer technology, they should have a new socket to not allow interchangeability, unless it can be powered by an existing ballast without changing anything.

Good thinking: You should be on a board for NEMA.

 

[eric7379]

I personally do not have any faith in the claims about an LED bulb's supposed long life. We did a small project last year in which we replaced 20 100W incandescant lights with LED light bulbs. The bulbs were in the neighborhood of $50 a piece. The manufacturer told us that the bulbs would work in our application. Guess what? Yesterday, I changed one of the bulbs out because it died. It lasted only 9 months. We took the bulb apart and found that one of the capacitors spilled its guts out onto the PCB. Maybe a defective bulb, maybe not, but it sure did raise some questions about the reliability of these bulbs.

 

[weressl]

WE are currently looking into replacing t-8 lamps and ballast with an led self containted lamp. Im told the ballast gets removed and the power wires are to be connected directly to the tomb stones. For example, on a 277v application , it would seem to me a danger might exist, what if the tomb stone were cracked or the lamp on one end didnt quite make it into the scocket. It seems to me it would either trip the whole circuit or blow a hole in the end of the fixture. What happens if joe the maint. guy installs a regular lamp? I called the manufacture, they said they were never asked this before.

Anyone have any experience or advice on this?

You would be voiding the listing of the fixture when modifying it.
I have purchased 4 complete fixtures for ~$12 apiece. Made in China, no listing. All the tombstones were cracked. So fixed that and put them in service on my porch. Each tube has between 188 and 152 elements, arranged in three rows. The light output is quite bright but far from a 40W fluo' tube. So when you do direct replacement in existing fixtures - should you be so brave - expect the light output to go down.

The tubes started failing in about a month. First, it was just couple of individual diodes went out, but as things progressed fro about two additional months, I would loose entire rows. So I called up the supplier and he sent me new fixtures, no charge. These have been up now for about 4 months and no failure.

I have seen UL listed replacement bulbs from GE at Sam's and either the lumen information is completely missing or it is very hard to find. I seen one decorative small globe listed for 200 lumens and 5 year guarantee. That is about 20000 hours of burning time dawn-to-dusk.

So the jury is out on this......waaaaay out, yet.

 

[digthisbigcrux]

I personally do not have any faith in the claims about an LED bulb's supposed long life. We did a small project last year in which we replaced 20 100W incandescant lights with LED light bulbs. The bulbs were in the neighborhood of $50 a piece. The manufacturer told us that the bulbs would work in our application. Guess what? Yesterday, I changed one of the bulbs out because it died. It lasted only 9 months. We took the bulb apart and found that one of the capacitors spilled its guts out onto the PCB. Maybe a defective bulb, maybe not, but it sure did raise some questions about the reliability of these bulbs.

why not just replace the capacitor?

 

[digthisbigcrux]

I personally do not have any faith in the claims about an LED bulb's supposed long life. We did a small project last year in which we replaced 20 100W incandescant lights with LED light bulbs. The bulbs were in the neighborhood of $50 a piece. The manufacturer told us that the bulbs would work in our application. Guess what? Yesterday, I changed one of the bulbs out because it died. It lasted only 9 months. We took the bulb apart and found that one of the capacitors spilled its guts out onto the PCB. Maybe a defective bulb, maybe not, but it sure did raise some questions about the reliability of these bulbs.

why not just replace the cap?

 

[eric7379]

I have seen UL listed replacement bulbs from GE at Sam's and either the lumen information is completely missing or it is very hard to find. I seen one decorative small globe listed for 200 lumens and 5 year guarantee. That is about 20000 hours of burning time dawn-to-dusk.

Don't buy the LED bulbs at Sam's. Waste of money and not bright enough. My girlfriend talked me into buying them (despite having strong objections about buying them) and when we installed them, they were way too dim. I didn't dare tell her that I was right. :grin:

 

[iwire]

You would be voiding the listing of the fixture when modifying it.

Really, UL does not seem to think so.


Straight from UL to you.

Field Modifications​

What happens to the Listing if a UL-Listed product is modified in the field?

An authorized use of the UL Mark is the manufacturer?s declaration that the product was originally
manufactured in accordance with the applicable requirements when it was shipped from the factory. When
a UL-Listed product is modified after it leaves the factory, UL has no way to determine if the product
continues to comply with the safety requirements used to certify the product without investigating the
modified product. UL can neither indicate that such modifications ??void?? the UL Mark, nor that the
product continues to meet UL?s safety requirements, unless the field modifications have been specifically
investigated by UL. It is the responsibility of the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) to determine the
acceptability of the modification or if the modifications are significant enough to require one of UL?s Field
Engineering Services staff members to evaluate the modified product. UL can assist the AHJ in making this
determination.

An exception for a field modification authorized by UL is when the product has specific replacement
markings. For example, a switchboard may have specific grounding kits added in the field. The
switchboard is marked with a list of specific kit numbers that have been investigated for use in that
particular switchboard. Only grounding kits that are included on the marking on the product have been
investigated for use in that product.

If a party wishes UL to determine if the modifications made to a UL Listed product comply with UL
requirements, the appropriate Field Engineering Service can be initiated to investigate the modifications.
This investigation will only be conducted after UL consults with the AHJ to ensure that UL?s investigation
addresses all areas of concern and meets all of the AHJ?s needs.

If you have any questions or would like to inquire about a Field Evaluation, contact Field Services at
+1-877-UL-HELPS, prompt #2 (+1-877-854-3577) or visit http://www.ul.com/field/index.html.

It seems "It is the responsibility of the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) to determine the
acceptability of the modification"

 

[bobsherwood]

I have tried the "T8" led replacement in my office. 120 volt. The color was not consistant. 3000 to 4500k very ugly. After a month, individual LEDs started going out. I'll not invest in them for some time. One the other hand, we are going to test LED low bays in one of our parking garages. We'll see.