Opinions sought NM inside conduit outside

[don_resqcapt19]

Given that the NEMA standard for 3R enclosures permits the inside of the enclosure below the live parts to get wet, why isn't the inside of that type of enclosure a wet location...at least the part of the enclosure below the live parts?

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

Given that the NEMA standard for 3R enclosures permits the inside of the enclosure below the live parts to get wet, why isn't the inside of that type of enclosure a wet location...at least the part of the enclosure below the live parts?

We might agree that it is conceivable that the inside of enclosure out side may get wet and logically think of it as a wet location but IMO the NEC does not consider it a wet location and I think this was intentional. Enclosures (along with raceways) are specifically called out as being wet under ground in 300.5(B). Then it 300.9 raceways are called out as being wet above ground and enclosures are left out.

If you install an outdoor load panel do you install CBs, terminal busses, etc that are identified for wet locations as 110.11 would require?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

We might agree that it is conceivable that the inside of enclosure out side may get wet and logically think of it as a wet location but IMO the NEC does not consider it a wet location and I think this was intentional. Enclosures (along with raceways) are specifically called out as being wet under ground in 300.5(B). Then it 300.9 raceways are called out as being wet above ground and enclosures are left out.

If you install an outdoor load panel do you install CBs, terminal busses, etc that are identified for wet locations as 110.11 would require?

I am not saying that the code says it is a wet location...I am just saying that the design of a 3R enclosure permits parts of the interior to be wet and the standard even requires drains to let the water that gets in drain out.
As far as what 300.9 says...I know...I wrote it.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

why isn't the inside of that type of enclosure a wet location

I am not saying that the code says it is a wet location
As far as what 300.9 says...I know...I wrote it.

I don't get it it sounds like you answer your own question.

OK.......Great job on 300.9
Why didn't you include enclosures in it? I've had some unfortunate events occur with my laptop so I don't have the ROP right now. I had to borrow my wifes laptop...

 

[220/221]

Is NM-B allowed to be run inside conduit located outside a building?

I am going back to a solid YES as my answer.

Outside a building isn't necessarily a wet location. It could be a damp location like under an eave.....right?

Heck, in my area, outside could be a dry location (not normally subject to dampness or wetness).


Romex is allowed in conduit outside on occaision.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

I am going back to a solid YES as my answer.

Outside a building isn't necessarily a wet location. It could be a damp location like under an eave.....right?

Heck, in my area, outside could be a dry location (not normally subject to dampness or wetness).
Romex is allowed in conduit outside on occaision.

I agree with this. Also (this may seem counter-intuitive) I don't think that that the interior of a raceway in a damp location to be considered a damp location by the NEC.

 

[220/221]

So.....is NM allowed in a damp location?

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

So.....is NM allowed in a damp location?

That would be a logical deduction.

I just don't see anything in the code that says the interior of conducts in a damp location are wet or damp locations... do you?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

334.12(B) Types NM and NMS. Types NM and NMS cables shall not be used under the following conditions or in the following locations:
(1) Where exposed to corrosive fumes or vapors
(2) Where embedded in masonry, concrete, adobe, fill, or plaster
(3) In a shallow chase in masonry, concrete, or adobe and covered with plaster, adobe, or similar finish
(4) In wet or damp locations

 

[220/221]

That would be a logical deduction.

Unfortunately, logic isn't always a factor in any set of rules.

 

[220/221]

(4) In wet or damp locations

Thank you sir

Looks like I am going to have to go with dry locations "Not normally subject to dampness or wetness"

The outside of MY house is not normally subject to dampness or wetness.

It is subject to dampness and wetness, but not normally.

 

[iwire]

220, you lost me.

NM can not be used in damp locations, it can not be used in wet locations.

The insde of raceways located in wet locations are still in fact wet locations.

The fact that none of us have seen NM damaged from moisture inside a conduit has nothing at all to do with the rules. Get over it and move on, it's not like your big on following the rules anyway.

 

[cschmid]

man I have seen NM in direct burial application..

so what up with the UL and Electrical code anyway. that nm has worked just fine for 10 years buried. I dont need any of that exspense sh-- just use that cheap NM. I am sorry then I dont think I need your services thank you and have a nice day.

ever heard that before.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

220, you lost me.

NM can not be used in damp locations, it can not be used in wet locations.

The insde of raceways located in wet locations are still in fact wet locations.

The fact that none of us have seen NM damaged from moisture inside a conduit has nothing at all to do with the rules. Get over it and move on, it's not like your big on following the rules anyway.

Hey do you think the inside of a conduit in a damp location is a damp location?

Do you think the inside of a enclosure in a damp location is a damp location?

What code sections do you base your answers on?

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

So.....is NM allowed in a damp location?

That would be a logical deduction.

I just don't see anything in the code that says the interior of conducts in a damp location are wet or damp locations... do you?

I just want to be clear when the question was asked is NM allowed in a damp location I was under the assumption that it was understood that he meant in a conduit that is in a damp location. Only because I don't see anything in the code that says the interior of a conduit in a damp location is in fact a damp location.

 

[iwire]

Hey do you think the inside of a conduit in a damp location is a damp location?

Yes.

Do you think the inside of a enclosure in a damp location is a damp location?

Yes.

What code sections do you base your answers on?

I base it on how the world works.

If an hollow object is located in a damp location the interior of the object will also be damp unless it was sealed perfectly under dry conditions or has some sort of environmental control.

If its damp outside (AKA Humid), is it damp inside an unheated shed?

IMO yes.

 

[220/221]

NM can not be used in damp locations

I know that now thanks to Don.

My new arguement is that outside isn't necessarily a wet or damp location because, in some cases, it's not normally subject to dampness or wetness.

Under a patio cover or eave is not normally subject to dampness or wetness, therefore it's a dry location.

Hey, it's all I got.

If an hollow object is located in a damp location the interior of the object will also be damp unless it was sealed perfectly under dry conditions or has some sort of environmental control

Like an exterior mounted panel

Get over it and move on, it's not like your big on following the rules anyway.

It's people like me who question authority that keep the governing bodies in check. Don't become a natin of sheep. Fight the power!

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

Yes.



Yes.



I base it on how the world works.

If an hollow object is located in a damp location the interior of the object will also be damp unless it was sealed perfectly under dry conditions or has some sort of environmental control.

If its damp outside (AKA Humid), is it damp inside an unheated shed?

IMO yes.

What about breakers identified for wet locations in outdoor load panels?

 

[petersonra]

If its damp outside (AKA Humid), is it damp inside an unheated shed?

IMO yes.

Is humid and damp the same thing?

Bathrooms and basements are subject to humid conditions on a regular basis yet no one claims NM cannot be used in bathrooms or basements.

 

[markstg]

I'm not NEC compliant?

I'm not NEC compliant?

If its damp outside (AKA Humid), is it damp inside an unheated shed?

IMO yes.

I have a shed in my backyard, it is unheated/unairconditioned, 8' x 10' and Romex was used. This is against the NEC since it is defined as a Damp Location?

It passed the electrical inspection, as did the Romex in the conduit from my exterior panelboard up into the attic, then again in conduit down the exterior of my house and underground 4' to the shed.