Farm bin site - 800A panelboard necessary

[2wheelinusa]

I need to feed (4) 200A urd services from the utility meter socket with transfer switch approx. 300' to a customer's building to house panels, starter's, etc for a bin site. I just received a quote for $3200 from my supplier for an 800A panelboard with (4) breakers to feed (4) 200A loadcenters with main breakers in this building. They will then feed individual motors, etc. Question is - do I need this panelboard? The guys on the fence whether to do this job or not, and this might keep it from happening. The panelboard would mount on the opposite side (outside) of the building with the loadcenters, so I don't think the unprotected 300' of wire should make a difference. Any way I can make this happen a little cheaper?? Thanks

 

[Cow]

Instead of an 800 amp panel with 4 branch breakers, 4 feeders, and 4-200 amp panels why not use one 800 amp fused disconnect, one 800 amp feeder to the building hitting a splice box/gutter with a dist block or taps feeding 4 main breaker panels?

 

[Buck Parrish]

Instead of an 800 amp panel with 4 branch breakers, 4 feeders, and 4-200 amp panels why not use one 800 amp fused disconnect, one 800 amp feeder to the building hitting a splice box/gutter with a dist block or taps feeding 4 main breaker panels?

The 800 amp disco is exspensive , too.
How's about have the service hit ct's first provided by poco. (Or you run a 1" pvc from a meter up the pole to the poco'c ct's)
Then bring the service to a gutter. Then hit 4, 200 amp disco's then go to your panels where ever you want them.

 

[benaround]

I need to feed (4) 200A urd services from the utility meter socket with transfer switch approx. 300' to a customer's building to house panels, starter's, etc for a bin site. I just received a quote for $3200 from my supplier for an 800A panelboard with (4) breakers to feed (4) 200A loadcenters with main breakers in this building. They will then feed individual motors, etc. Question is - do I need this panelboard? The guys on the fence whether to do this job or not, and this might keep it from happening. The panelboard would mount on the opposite side (outside) of the building with the loadcenters, so I don't think the unprotected 300' of wire should make a difference. Any way I can make this happen a little cheaper?? Thanks

I think you should do a load calc. and see what size service is needed.

 

[bob]

I agree with Ben. List the loads and lets see if it adds uo to 800 amps.

 

[Buck Parrish]

I agree with Ben. List the loads and lets see if it adds uo to 800 amps.

I conccur;

 

[hillbilly1]

Why not use 4-200 fusible disconnects as 4 mains with the proper AIC rating of fuses? you are allowed up to 6, install a wireway and tap each 200 amp disconnect off of the 800 amp feed.

 

[walkerj]

The 800 amp disco is exspensive , too.
How's about have the service hit ct's first provided by poco. (Or you run a 1" pvc from a meter up the pole to the poco'c ct's)
Then bring the service to a gutter. Then hit 4, 200 amp disco's then go to your panels where ever you want them.

This is what I would do.

 

[hillbilly1]

The 800 amp disco is exspensive , too.
How's about have the service hit ct's first provided by poco. (Or you run a 1" pvc from a meter up the pole to the poco'c ct's)
Then bring the service to a gutter. Then hit 4, 200 amp disco's then go to your panels where ever you want them.

Didn't see that you had also made this suggestion:smile: With that large of service definetly find out what the available short circuit current is, don't want those new disconnects blowing off the pole!:grin:

 

[hurk27]

I think the problem is with the combo meter socket with a transfer switch, if this wasn't there, then he could hit each main breaker panel with just the SEC's and treat each load as a service, we have done this out of a CT can to several main breaker panels, no need for a disco until you enter a building.

But having a transfer switch at the meter kind of throws this out as you will need a disco for it. actually I have never seen a combo 800 amp transfer switch and I never heard of a meter without Ct's at that amperage.

If this is part of a utility supplied system then you might get away with treating the load side of it as SEC's? if so then you only need 3 or 4 4? to each load? (main breaker panel) at each building. depending upon if 3? or single?

Of course it all boils down to what the AHJ would want

 

[wireguru]

I think the problem is with the combo meter socket with a transfer switch, if this wasn't there, then he could hit each main breaker panel with just the SEC's and treat each load as a service, we have done this out of a CT can to several main breaker panels, no need for a disco until you enter a building.

But having a transfer switch at the meter kind of throws this out as you will need a disco for it. actually I have never seen a combo 800 amp transfer switch and I never heard of a meter without Ct's at that amperage.

If this is part of a utility supplied system then you might get away with treating the load side of it as SEC's? if so then you only need 3 or 4 4? to each load? (main breaker panel) at each building. depending upon if 3? or single?

Of course it all boils down to what the AHJ would want

4x 200a transfer switches is cheaper than an 800a transfer switch and 800a disco. just sayin.....

 

[2wheelinusa]

The load calcs are between 152A & 172A for the (3) feeds. The customer is talking about adding a shop with elec. heat next year so I thought while the trencher is out we should set it up for a 4th 200A loadcenter which will have around a 110A load on it. The utility will have a ct setup for this, and will be replacing the 400A switch with a larger transfer switch to allow for the extra feeds I will need. I would like to just bring each 4/0 urd tri into a 200A fused disco in the building, and from there feed each 200A loadcenter independently. It just seems a little too easy. The outdoor 800A panelboard would be convenient for adding things in the future, but I'm not going to do it unless I have to.

 

[2wheelinusa]

Oh-I forgot to mention it is a single phase 240v service. Largest motor load is 10hp.

 

[hurk27]

I'm I missing something? are you installing a transfer switch for a generator? or are you calling something else a transfer switch? like a meter disconnect, service disconnect? unless someone else is requiring one, the NEC dosen't require one at a pole. just where you enter a building, you don't enter a pole, and a CT cabinet/meter is just a wide place in the SEC's

That way you can treat the feeds to each panel as SEC's and treat each panel as service equipment which you need to do anyways, saves allot

 

[2wheelinusa]

It's a meter/switch combo that just happens to have a transfer switch incorporated into it. It's actually installed by the utility, all I have to do is connect to it from what they told me. They are very nice!

 

[hurk27]

Heres How I would do a job like this (at least here in Indiana) set a CT cabinet on the pole, with quad lugs on the load side, and double 600 Kcmil lugs on the POCO side, run three 4/0 to each main breaker panel or disconect on each building, treat each as you would a service at each building as far as GES, this way you save on wire, and only need a 200 amp disconnect/main breaker at each building which you will need anyways. we do very simular type of services all the time like this.

This 800 amp transfer switch thingy has me confuse as I could not imagine a generator that big on a single phase service? 140kw? ouch big price

 

[hurk27]

Ok is the switch portion of it ahead of the meter?
is there any OCPD's?
if so this could be treated as a meter disconnect?

Never seen one:-?
It just seems like a waste having a transfer switch there as you could never afford that size of a generator if they even make one that big in single phase:-?

 

[2wheelinusa]

Thanks Hurk. I have never seen a utility disconnect this large either. Normally a 400A Ronk type switch around here, which normally the customer either hooks up a tractor pto with a 100A generator or 200A propane generator at best. The only fuse will be at the transformer on the pole. This particular utility is easy to deal with as far as having OCP on our side of things. In fact, they let anyone get on a ladder to disconnect the overhead from their transformer, change the service out, and then reconnect. They will come out later in the week and put a meter lock on. I don't know if you would say the meter is ahead or behind the switch since it is CT'd. I'm thinking about talking to someone else on Monday about this just to make sure the guy I talked to knows what is going on. Like I said, he made it sould tooo simple. Hope it is. If it is considered a meter disconnect, does that mean I need a 4th wire to each disco?

 

[hurk27]

no If there is no OCPDs at the meter, then as far as the NEC goes is all you have to do is find a code compliant way to connect 4 4/0's to each lug, this could be done in a troff under the meter, and big JB, or if the the lugs in the meter/CT cabinet has changeable lugs then just change them to quads?

the NEC only requires us to protect the SEC's at or closest point after we enter a structure or building, while some can say a pole is a structure, but where do the SEC's ever enter this structure? so as far as I can see no disconnect or OCPD's are required on the pole.

We even do this on a house, where the laterals come up into a 320 meter base we install double lugs and run right back into the ground and hit a main breaker panel just inside an out building whether it be a garage or a barn. these conductors are still SEC's and we treat the panel at the out building as a service. and our state AHJ has agreed with this as being code compliant.

 

[ptonsparky]

You need to do a load calc. Figure out how many of these motors will be running at the same time. Generally all aeriation fans and whatever motors required to fill or empty one bin will be your largest load. We would ignore the 800 Amp POCO transfer switch and go for the 4 200s.