400A service w/ two 200A panels

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ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
I was called for an electrical service inspection for a service on a 2 unit house. It originally had a 200A service with 2 100A meter bases and panels.

It is now being upgraded to accomodate 2 200A panels. No calculation were submitted with the permit application from what I am told.

I found a 2 gang meter base with a center blank manufactured by Landis, catalog # UA2717=YPZA.

Here is the problem. The label states that it is a 200A meter base and also states "200A total". I failed the inspection for this reason not to mention the 500kcmil xhhw aluminum drop for this type of service.

I normally see the Milibank meter bases that are clearly marked 400A and 200A per meter.

The Landis rep is trying to tell me this is OK but his product label says different.

Anyone else have any experience with these?
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
I have seen the same and done exactly as you did.
I require the assembly be properly rated or load calculations to show it is sufficient.
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Landis still insists that there is nothing wrong with the use of the meter base for this application but will not change or send a new label. Interesting.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
did they say it in writing ? :D If not, and anything ever did go wrong, you would play heck getting that guy into court to defend you on the lawsuit, etc.
The sticker seems pretty self explanatory. I'd advise the E/C when it's corrected "give me a call". You contacted the manufacturer and could not obtain adequate written verification, you posted here, found nothing to support the alternate theory. There is only so much you can do to solve THEIR problem.
 

scwirenut

Senior Member
I personally dont see a prob and would be appalled after spending hours in the heat building this service with a UL listed enclosure only to be turned down. the "200 amps" marked in the MB is for the socket. there are 2 separate sockets s whats the big deal. remember the code says listed, labeled or "APPROVED". approve this thing and let these guys go on a make a sweaty living. I have installed many of these and visually you can easily see they are not 100 amp sockets. the fact that they included lugs big enough for 500mcm should tell u this. , also whats wrong with the 500al conductors?

are these guys out of town , and u just trying to be a stickler?
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
I personally dont see a prob and would be appalled after spending hours in the heat building this service with a UL listed enclosure only to be turned down. the "200 amps" marked in the MB is for the socket. there are 2 separate sockets s whats the big deal. remember the code says listed, labeled or "APPROVED". approve this thing and let these guys go on a make a sweaty living. I have installed many of these and visually you can easily see they are not 100 amp sockets. the fact that they included lugs big enough for 500mcm should tell u this. , also whats wrong with the 500al conductors?

are these guys out of town , and u just trying to be a stickler?

Not that you care, but I find that attitude insulting. I commend him for being thorough. The attached page from the Landis Catalog clearly shows an overall capacity of 200 amps--not per meter. It definitely is a weak link in the chain and not to address it would be not doing your job as an inspector. I certainly hope you don't approach your installations with the same attitude.
View attachment 3523
 

C3PO

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
I think you did what you should have. The EC either needs to prove that the calculated load of both units (total) is less then 200A or needs to change his meterbase.
 

C3PO

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
I personally dont see a prob and would be appalled after spending hours in the heat building this service with a UL listed enclosure only to be turned down. the "200 amps" marked in the MB is for the socket. there are 2 separate sockets s whats the big deal. remember the code says listed, labeled or "APPROVED". approve this thing and let these guys go on a make a sweaty living. I have installed many of these and visually you can easily see they are not 100 amp sockets. the fact that they included lugs big enough for 500mcm should tell u this. , also whats wrong with the 500al conductors?

are these guys out of town , and u just trying to be a stickler?

I can install a listed and labeled electric fence box inside my shower but that does not make it "accaptable"

A product that is listed still has to be used properly
 

scwirenut

Senior Member
I can install a listed and labeled electric fence box inside my shower but that does not make it "accaptable"

A product that is listed still has to be used properly

i think u have it backwards. the product was used properly, it just isn't labeled properly. I just installed 88 of these for the housing authority, they are the same as properly labled, CH , siemens, and SD. ...same 600mcm lugs, same sockets, same size bars and same material.
do u really think they would make a dual 200 socket only rated for combined 200 amps? by the looks of the bussing they would probably hold 800amps or better. just bad labeling. just cause its named a mouse dosnt mean its not still a rat.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
i think u have it backwards. the product was used properly, it just isn't labeled properly.

And I don't think you have read the thread.

Even the manufacturers catalog page says it has an "overall capacity" of 200 amps.


Attachment 3523


Regardless of what the unit may really be able to carry, the fact the label and the catalog do not indicate 200 amps per position the inspector did exactly what they should have.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
i think u have it backwards. the product was used properly, it just isn't labeled properly. I just installed 88 of these for the housing authority, they are the same as properly labled, CH , siemens, and SD. ...same 600mcm lugs, same sockets, same size bars and same material. .
As Bob and I both pointed out, according to the factory cut sheet, it's not labeled wrong. Factory says maximum combined load = 200 amps

do u really think they would make a dual 200 socket only rated for combined 200 amps? .

apparently they do. From the looks of thier catlog, mpre than one. Thats why we read labels, all cats are grey at night.

just cause its named a mouse dosnt mean its not still a rat.

And if I inspected your job and you had a room without AFCI (05 Code) and the panel and drawings were labeled "office" and I said it looked like a bedroom to me, you'd be the first to say "read the label" :D
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Here is what Augie originally pointed out.

MeterSocket.jpg


Notice the overall ampacity vs the number of positions.

It seems like they do make a 2 gang meter socket that can handle two 200 amp meters with only a total ampacity of 200 amps.
 

scwirenut

Senior Member

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts

tryinghard

Senior Member
Location
California
OK, but where would we find the needed ampacity of these conductors so we could pick them out of 310.16?

You asked a question in Post 5, maybe you meant this rhetorically/facetiously?

I don't know what your mean at this point except the calc needs to qualify the feed/service.
 
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