VFD/Dual Motors

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I need to install a 50hp rated drive to feed two 20hp fan motors that need to run at the same time and speed.I plan to size feed conductors and install short circuit protection as required to protect the drive, install individual overloads for the motors and size the conductors to the motors. I need to know if I'm on the right track and if there is anything I need to keep into consideration.
 
I need to install a 50hp rated drive to feed two 20hp fan motors that need to run at the same time and speed.I plan to size feed conductors and install short circuit protection as required to protect the drive, install individual overloads for the motors and size the conductors to the motors. I need to know if I'm on the right track and if there is anything I need to keep into consideration.

The ASD integral short circuit output short circuit protection will protect the motors. The individual (c0neventional)verload protections will only be useful @ full speed. Individual thermistors and relay would be the one really meaningful protection.
This only from the technical and safety viewpoint and not necessarily in agreement with the NEC in both direction.
 

Doug S.

Senior Member
Location
West Michigan
Some drive manufacturers specify the distances from the drive the dual loads are allowed to be. Mitsi. and Lenze come to mind. IIRC one of them has a diagram in the manual showing distance allowances.
I'm not sure but, I'm guessing they don't want one drive at 5' of cable with the other out at 500'.

Maybe one of the EE types can speak more into this?


My 2?
Doug S.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
The ASD integral short circuit output short circuit protection will protect the motors. The individual (c0neventional)verload protections will only be useful @ full speed.
Conventional thermal overload units (not CT driven) are mostly insensitive to frequency so would work at any speed.
Individual thermistors and relay would be the one really meaningful protection.
We generally put thermistor protection on all motors whether single or multi-motor applications. In fact it is usually specified as a requirement by the customer.
 

hillbilly

Senior Member
I need to install a 50hp rated drive to feed two 20hp fan motors that need to run at the same time and speed.I plan to size feed conductors and install short circuit protection as required to protect the drive, install individual overloads for the motors and size the conductors to the motors. I need to know if I'm on the right track and if there is anything I need to keep into consideration.


Can you describe the installation?
If I'm picturing it right, there may be a (performance) problem with your idea.

steve
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
as long as lead, lag doesn't become an issue,,,,,(which if the motors are not coupled together you won't). If they're seperate, you'll be fine
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
You're missing the point. The motor can be overloaded at lower than NPRPM without exceeding the FLA.
Not sure that overloaded is quite the right term but I quite understand your point.
If the application is constant torque and the motor cooling is by a shaft mounted fan then yes, you could expect winding temperature limitations at reduced speeds.
But, if you know it is a constant torque requirement, you wouldn't design it to depemd on shaft fan cooling.
 
Thanks for the response. I think I need to do some homework. I called the VFD manufacture (Dan Foss) and they said it was not unusual to parallel motors as long as they had individual overload protection (they did not specify what type). I think the motors are constant torque and were purchased as one unit with the fans attached. Unfortunately I am only familiar with conventional overloads. Are the individual thermistors internal to the motor or maybe an electronic overload? The motors are not VFD rated.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Thanks for the response. I think I need to do some homework. I called the VFD manufacture (Dan Foss) and they said it was not unusual to parallel motors as long as they had individual overload protection (they did not specify what type). I think the motors are constant torque and were purchased as one unit with the fans attached. Unfortunately I am only familiar with conventional overloads. Are the individual thermistors internal to the motor or maybe an electronic overload? The motors are not VFD rated.
The VFD can be sized as Variable Torque or Constant Torque. The motor is just a motor. The LOAD is what determines if the application is VT or CT, and the difference is only related to the over current CAPACITY of the VFD (not to be confused with the MOTOR thermal overload protection). Most fans are going to be Variable Torque loads, meaning that the mechanical load on the motor shaft is dropping down as the speed drops, because the fan blades are no longer moving as much air.

The VFD has motor OL protection built-in, but as has been said, this cannot differentiate between the two motors, it only sees the entire (combined) load. Hence the need for separate OL relays.

OL relays monitor the motor current and determine, based on predictive modeling, what amount of current represents a potentially damaging temperaure in the motor. OL relays come in two main flavors;
1) Conventional, a.k.a. thermal or Bi-metal (there are other types of conventional OLs, but they are less common now). These have been around for years and are still the most common type because they are the cheapest and work very well for the most part.
2) Solid State overloads, which use current transducers to provide information to a microprocessor that has the motor damage curves programmed in. As a general rule, SSOLs offer a lot more protection features and a wider range of adjustment so are now superior to Conventional OLs except in one case, that being this one where you are down stream of a VFD going to multiple motors. SSOLs have a difficult time differentiating real (active) current from harmonic current and most ore not rated for use in what are called "non-linear loads" such as VFD outputs.

A 3rd option is one that uses Thermistors, a resistive device that is made to change resistance at a specific threshold of temperature. The thermistor sensor devices MUST be embedded into the motor windings, which for the most part means that the motor mfr must do so when the motor is made. The thermistors are then wired in series to a Thermistor Trip Relay or a Thermistor Trip Input to a controller such as the VFD. Instead of monitoring current then, they monitor the actual physical temperature of the motor.

The problem with Thermistor OL protection however is that as I said, the thermistor devices must be built-in to the motor. In countries where IEC motors are used, this is a very common feature of motors, even if they are never used. In the US and Canada however, it is not and someone would have needed to special order the motors with them inside. Some manufacturers are now including thermistors in their "Inverter Duty" motor offerings, but that is by no means universal. Their inclusion would be noted on the nameplate so if your motor's nameplates don't say they are thermistor protected, they are not. Thermistors can be added in the field by a good motor rewind shop, but it is not practical for the average user to add them.

So bottom line, IF your motors happen to have thermistors in them already (as noted on the nameplate), then use them, they are perfect for what you want to do here. If not (most likely), then use basic every day conventional bi-metal overload relays, one for each motor, with the trip contacts wired in series with each other in a way that trips the VFD. Usually if the VFD has a Thermistor Trip input (the Danfoss will), you can wire the conventional OLs to that circuit. This way if either OL relay trips, the VFD will shut down and the display will read "External OL Trip" or something to that effect, rather than just shutting down without indication.
 
Thanks for the response. I think I need to do some homework. I called the VFD manufacture (Dan Foss) and they said it was not unusual to parallel motors as long as they had individual overload protection (they did not specify what type). I think the motors are constant torque and were purchased as one unit with the fans attached. Unfortunately I am only familiar with conventional overloads. Are the individual thermistors internal to the motor or maybe an electronic overload? The motors are not VFD rated.

As somebody else pointed out the fans are most likely variable torque application. The motors not being rated fro inverter service may be a bigger problem on the long run. Keep the carrier frequency as low as possible and have the drive as close to the motor as possible. Individual conventional overloads will protect the motors thermally, just don't forget to wire the NC contacts in series into the ASD and program the input to trip the ASD.:smile:
 

kspifldorf

Senior Member
Just my thoughts: I needed to slow some existing conveyors down, about 15 of them, ranging from 5' to about 150' away from main panel. I intercepted the main and the distribution block with a mitsubishi, sized accordingly, and used existing o.l.'s , wiring, motors, the works. 7years later still no problems. Just thought it was worth mentioning.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
2) Solid State overloads, which use current transducers to provide information to a microprocessor that has the motor damage curves programmed in. As a general rule, SSOLs offer a lot more protection features and a wider range of adjustment so are now superior to Conventional OLs except in one case, that being this one where you are down stream of a VFD going to multiple motors. SSOLs have a difficult time differentiating real (active) current from harmonic current and most ore not rated for use in what are called "non-linear loads" such as VFD outputs.
Three points.
I agree that you need individual overload protection on each motor -almost self-evident I should have thought.
Winding temperature I2R losses depend on just I, not its phase components.
The output current from most VSDs has much lower current distortion than the input current.[/QUOTE]
 
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