Grounded & Grounding Conductors Under One Terminal?

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ptrombley

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Is it a code violation to install a neutral conductor (white) and a grounding conductor (bare or green) under the same screen in a panelboard? This is not a subpanel... this is a typical 120/240V residential service panel. I often see the grounds and neutrals separated, even though the terminal bars are bonded together.
 
ptrombley said:
Is it a code violation to install a neutral conductor (white) and a grounding conductor (bare or green) under the same screen in a panelboard? This is not a subpanel... this is a typical 120/240V residential service panel. I often see the grounds and neutrals separated, even though the terminal bars are bonded together.
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408.41 - Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

Is this the section you may be looking for? Neutral & grounding conductor can terminate on the same bus in a service, but not the same terminal screw.
 
ptrombley said:
Is it a code violation to install a neutral conductor (white) and a grounding conductor (bare or green) under the same screen in a panelboard? This is not a subpanel... this is a typical 120/240V residential service panel. I often see the grounds and neutrals separated, even though the terminal bars are bonded together.
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You should read read art. 408.41
first.

408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations.
Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
Exception: Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate in a single terminal if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor.
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Thanks, Dennis.
I've read that numerous times, but apparently never READ it. My mind-set was "two neutrals were a violation" and I had been allowing a neutral and equipment ground. As the younger folks say "My Bad!"
 
I wonder why this code is in place. Ground strips are a lot more industrious then din rail terminals and din rail terminals are usually rated for 2 wires.
 
StephenSDH said:
I wonder why this code is in place. Ground strips are a lot more industrious then din rail terminals and din rail terminals are usually rated for 2 wires.
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One of the reasons this code is in place is to relieve one from having to do maintenance and possibly loosen an unintentional grounded conductor while trying to work on the other that is under the same terminal. If one conductor is under the terminal, it becomes more difficult to create that hazard.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
You should read read art. 408.41
first.
408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations.
Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
Exception: Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate in a single terminal if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor.
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That exception mentions nothing about "grounding" (EGC) conductors, just - "Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors" . One would hope the grounding conductors are not part of the circuit - in parallel...
 
e57 said:
That exception mentions nothing about "grounding" (EGC) conductors, just - "Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors" . One would hope the grounding conductors are not part of the circuit - in parallel...
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I don't understand your response. The OP asked a question and I believe my posts answered his question. Do you believe it is okay to terminate egc and grounded conductors under the same terminal?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I don't understand your response. The OP asked a question and I believe my posts answered his question. Do you believe it is okay to terminate egc and grounded conductors under the same terminal?
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No - I dont think they should be together in the same terminal - maybe I was interpeting your responce to include the exception, to mean you suggest they could?
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
One of the reasons this code is in place is to relieve one from having to do maintenance and possibly loosen an unintentional grounded conductor while trying to work on the other that is under the same terminal. If one conductor is under the terminal, it becomes more difficult to create that hazard.
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That makes so much sense now. You would be disconnecting grounded conductors for circuits you are not working on. Thanks
 
e57 said:
No - I dont think they should be together in the same terminal - maybe I was interpeting your responce to include the exception, to mean you suggest they could?
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Well, there-- I guess we cleared that one up--- Seems we agree.:grin:
 
Dennis Alwon said:
...Do you believe it is okay to terminate egc and grounded conductors under the same terminal?
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I'll play devils advocate and say Yes.
(as long as the neutral and ground are for the same circuit)

I see no harm, and an opportunity for a "neater" (more neat?) install...
 
wasasparky said:
I'll play devils advocate ...
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There can only be one!!!!

highlander_connor.jpg


That's ahh.... My usual role... ;) And BTW you're wrong...
 
note to Code Making Panels... add FPN "unless it's neater":)

Wasasparky, I agree with the thought, but Dennis has shown me the light
 
e57 said:
There can only be one!!!!
That's ahh.... My usual role... ;) And BTW you're wrong...
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Once again I have poorly stated my point, let me re-phrase.:roll:
I was not speaking code-wise. I agree code does not allow it.:)

I think the pendulum swung too far with the two neutrals per terminal thing.
I think a neutral & ground in the same terminal is actually a good idea.
(Unless maybe there is a plethora of terminals...)

There, now flame me for the right thing!;):grin::cool:
 
wasasparky said:
Once again I have poorly stated my point, let me re-phrase.:roll:
I was not speaking code-wise. I agree code does not allow it.:)

I think the pendulum swung too far with the two neutrals per terminal thing.
I think a neutral & ground in the same terminal is actually a good idea.
(Unless maybe there is a plethora of terminals...)

There, now flame me for the right thing!;):grin::cool:
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plethora ??? Flame you ? Heck with words like that I can't even play in your league :)
( I looked it up..very appropriate....and impressive)
 
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