Grounded & Grounding Conductors Under One Terminal?

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augie47 said:
plethora ??? Flame you ? Heck with words like that I can't even play in your league :)
( I looked it up..very appropriate....and impressive)
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Don't give me too much credit, I learned the word plethora from watching "The 3-Amigos":grin::grin::grin: No - wait a minute, please worship me:);):roll:
 
wasasparky said:
I think a neutral & ground in the same terminal is actually a good idea.
(Unless maybe there is a plethora of terminals...)

There, now flame me for the right thing!;):grin::cool:
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Still wrong...

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e57 said:
Still wrong...
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Please elaborate.

Now that I got it down to an opinion level (agree code does not allow), I wasn't expecting to be wrong - just expecting a different opinion.:-?:-?

Please enlighten me on the inherent danger that would result from a neutral & ground terminated on the same terminal. (once again, keeping it simple, -terminal listed for 2 conductors, N & G of same circuit, etc.)
 
wasasparky said:
Please elaborate.

Now that I got it down to an opinion level (agree code does not allow), I wasn't expecting to be wrong - just expecting a different opinion.:-?:-?

Please enlighten me on the inherent danger that would result from a neutral & ground terminated on the same terminal. (once again, keeping it simple, -terminal listed for 2 conductors, N & G of same circuit, etc.)
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Just to be painfully clear, this would be at a service where the N & G can actually be landed on the same bus...
 
If the screw holding both the N&G conductors were loose you would lose you path for fault current as well as proper function of the circuit. You also have the heating and cooling issue with the neutral, but not the ground.
 
wasasparky said:
Please elaborate.

Now that I got it down to an opinion level (agree code does not allow), I wasn't expecting to be wrong - just expecting a different opinion.:-?:-?

Please enlighten me on the inherent danger that would result from a neutral & ground terminated on the same terminal. (once again, keeping it simple, -terminal listed for 2 conductors, N & G of same circuit, etc.)
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I don't think anyone thinks this is a mortal sin but you are giving a very specific easy condition. Suppose I needed more terminals and I needed to get the egc loose that is under the same screw as the grounded conductor. Surely we could could turn breakers off and eliminate most issues but suppose the circuit is live. Now pull on the bare egc with a load on the circuit. Do you not see any potential issues here?
 
jimport said:
If the screw holding both the N&G conductors were loose you would lose you path for fault current as well as proper function of the circuit.
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If a single neutral was loose you would have a problem.
If a single ground was loose you would have a problem.(come fault time)
If they happend at the same time you would have a problem.

jimport said:
You also have the heating and cooling issue with the neutral, but not the ground.
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The ground would actually act as a heat sink.
For a constant load they would be pretty close in temp.
I don't see this as a deal breaker.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I don't think anyone thinks this is a mortal sin but you are giving a very specific easy condition.
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And I still can't catch any slack!:)
(And i'm not advocating violating the code.)

Dennis Alwon said:
Suppose I needed more terminals and I needed to get the egc loose that is under the same screw as the grounded conductor.
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So working hot is acceptable?:confused:

Dennis Alwon said:
Surely we could could turn breakers off and eliminate most issues but suppose the circuit is live. Now pull on the bare egc with a load on the circuit. Do you not see any potential issues here?
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Yes - working hot.
 
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Sorry I was a little punchy at 5AM....
wasasparky said:
Please elaborate.

Now that I got it down to an opinion level (agree code does not allow), I wasn't expecting to be wrong - just expecting a different opinion.:-?:-?

Please enlighten me on the inherent danger that would result from a neutral & ground terminated on the same terminal. (once again, keeping it simple, -terminal listed for 2 conductors, N & G of same circuit, etc.)
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I think this one nails it right here... As a reason...

jimport said:
If the screw holding both the N&G conductors were loose you would lose you path for fault current as well as proper function of the circuit. You also have the heating and cooling issue with the neutral, but not the ground.
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If you loose the neutral - there will be problems ranging from it not working... To possible fire from Hi/Lo condition - if you lose it at that point - you could very well loose both grounded, and EGC conductors.

wasasparky said:
If a single neutral was loose you would have a problem.
If a single ground was loose you would have a problem.(come fault time)
If they happend at the same time you would have a problem.


The ground would actually act as a heat sink.
For a constant load they would be pretty close in temp.
I don't see this as a deal breaker.
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I am also not sure how they would act in a short condition... While this occurs conductors are pushing and pulling away from other conductors - tempature changes very rapidly. If they were both parallel circuit conductor they would do that together at the same rate.

While I am surpised the code even allows two neutrals in parallel as that exception - not all terminals are the type found in a load center - i.e. generator load studs are split bolt type often... An item I feel more comfortable doing that with.

It is also a listing issue as well - just took a peek at my panel - the lable had long language allowing (1) neutral conductor 'and if unused' - 'when used service equipment' (1)~(3) EGC's 'in unused holes'.
 
ptrombley said:
Is it a code violation to install a neutral conductor (white) and a grounding conductor (bare or green) under the same screen in a panelboard?
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It's not legal to do now, but I have encountered the same thing in many panels wired in the past.
 
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