Grounded & Grounding Conductors Under One Terminal?

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ptrombley

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Is it a code violation to install a neutral conductor (white) and a grounding conductor (bare or green) under the same screen in a panelboard? This is not a subpanel... this is a typical 120/240V residential service panel. I often see the grounds and neutrals separated, even though the terminal bars are bonded together.
 
D

dana1028

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco Bay area
ptrombley said:
Is it a code violation to install a neutral conductor (white) and a grounding conductor (bare or green) under the same screen in a panelboard? This is not a subpanel... this is a typical 120/240V residential service panel. I often see the grounds and neutrals separated, even though the terminal bars are bonded together.
Click to expand...

408.41 - Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

Is this the section you may be looking for? Neutral & grounding conductor can terminate on the same bus in a service, but not the same terminal screw.
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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ptrombley said:
Is it a code violation to install a neutral conductor (white) and a grounding conductor (bare or green) under the same screen in a panelboard? This is not a subpanel... this is a typical 120/240V residential service panel. I often see the grounds and neutrals separated, even though the terminal bars are bonded together.
Click to expand...

You should read read art. 408.41
first.

408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations.
Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
Exception: Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate in a single terminal if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor.
Click to expand...
 
augie47

augie47

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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Thanks, Dennis.
I've read that numerous times, but apparently never READ it. My mind-set was "two neutrals were a violation" and I had been allowing a neutral and equipment ground. As the younger folks say "My Bad!"
 
StephenSDH

StephenSDH

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Location
Allentown, PA
I wonder why this code is in place. Ground strips are a lot more industrious then din rail terminals and din rail terminals are usually rated for 2 wires.
 
Pierre C Belarge

Pierre C Belarge

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Location
Westchester County, New York
StephenSDH said:
I wonder why this code is in place. Ground strips are a lot more industrious then din rail terminals and din rail terminals are usually rated for 2 wires.
Click to expand...


One of the reasons this code is in place is to relieve one from having to do maintenance and possibly loosen an unintentional grounded conductor while trying to work on the other that is under the same terminal. If one conductor is under the terminal, it becomes more difficult to create that hazard.
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
Dennis Alwon said:
You should read read art. 408.41
first.
408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations.
Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
Exception: Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate in a single terminal if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

That exception mentions nothing about "grounding" (EGC) conductors, just - "Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors" . One would hope the grounding conductors are not part of the circuit - in parallel...
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Retired Electrical Contractor
e57 said:
That exception mentions nothing about "grounding" (EGC) conductors, just - "Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors" . One would hope the grounding conductors are not part of the circuit - in parallel...
Click to expand...
I don't understand your response. The OP asked a question and I believe my posts answered his question. Do you believe it is okay to terminate egc and grounded conductors under the same terminal?
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
Dennis Alwon said:
I don't understand your response. The OP asked a question and I believe my posts answered his question. Do you believe it is okay to terminate egc and grounded conductors under the same terminal?
Click to expand...
No - I dont think they should be together in the same terminal - maybe I was interpeting your responce to include the exception, to mean you suggest they could?
 
StephenSDH

StephenSDH

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Location
Allentown, PA
Pierre C Belarge said:
One of the reasons this code is in place is to relieve one from having to do maintenance and possibly loosen an unintentional grounded conductor while trying to work on the other that is under the same terminal. If one conductor is under the terminal, it becomes more difficult to create that hazard.
Click to expand...

That makes so much sense now. You would be disconnecting grounded conductors for circuits you are not working on. Thanks
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Retired Electrical Contractor
e57 said:
No - I dont think they should be together in the same terminal - maybe I was interpeting your responce to include the exception, to mean you suggest they could?
Click to expand...

Well, there-- I guess we cleared that one up--- Seems we agree.:grin:
 
W

wasasparky

Senior Member
Dennis Alwon said:
...Do you believe it is okay to terminate egc and grounded conductors under the same terminal?
Click to expand...

I'll play devils advocate and say Yes.
(as long as the neutral and ground are for the same circuit)

I see no harm, and an opportunity for a "neater" (more neat?) install...
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
wasasparky said:
I'll play devils advocate ...
Click to expand...

There can only be one!!!!

highlander_connor.jpg


That's ahh.... My usual role... ;) And BTW you're wrong...
 
augie47

augie47

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Tennessee
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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
note to Code Making Panels... add FPN "unless it's neater":)

Wasasparky, I agree with the thought, but Dennis has shown me the light
 
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wasasparky

Senior Member
e57 said:
There can only be one!!!!
That's ahh.... My usual role... ;) And BTW you're wrong...
Click to expand...

Once again I have poorly stated my point, let me re-phrase.:roll:
I was not speaking code-wise. I agree code does not allow it.:)

I think the pendulum swung too far with the two neutrals per terminal thing.
I think a neutral & ground in the same terminal is actually a good idea.
(Unless maybe there is a plethora of terminals...)

There, now flame me for the right thing!;):grin::cool:
 
augie47

augie47

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Location
Tennessee
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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
wasasparky said:
Once again I have poorly stated my point, let me re-phrase.:roll:
I was not speaking code-wise. I agree code does not allow it.:)

I think the pendulum swung too far with the two neutrals per terminal thing.
I think a neutral & ground in the same terminal is actually a good idea.
(Unless maybe there is a plethora of terminals...)

There, now flame me for the right thing!;):grin::cool:
Click to expand...

plethora ??? Flame you ? Heck with words like that I can't even play in your league :)
( I looked it up..very appropriate....and impressive)
 
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