Water flow 120 VAC bell

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epsilon

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I installed some water flow 120 VAC bell in Fire Alarm Sytem with convential FACP,and always I had used the AC power to feed the bells from a near 120AC outlet.Senior technicians in my company told me that everything is as per code, but I think that the AC power must be supervised by FACP.I'm new in Fire Alarm (around 1 1/2 years) and in the Company too.There's some specifications in NFPA 72 about water flow 120 VAC bells.

Thanks
 
epsilon said:
I installed some water flow 120 VAC bell in Fire Alarm Sytem with convential FACP,and always I had used the AC power to feed the bells from a near 120AC outlet.Senior technicians in my company told me that everything is as per code, but I think that the AC power must be supervised by FACP.I'm new in Fire Alarm (around 1 1/2 years) and in the Company too.There's some specifications in NFPA 72 about water flow 120 VAC bells.

Thanks
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Typically the 120AC is the same circuit as a FACP/NAC panel so that when they lose power they report the trouble, no need for redundant supervision

Also, Fire alarm circuits are to be dedicated with a labeled locked breaker (NFPA 72 – Section 4.4.1.4.2.2), So tapping an outlet is a violation because it shares power, and I'm sure there isn't a lock on the CB
 
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Personally I would have a dedicated CB for it. Label it in big red letters FIRE ALARM and put a lock on it. Then 99% of the time its left alone by those not in the know.

Technically the 120 VAC circuit is supposed to be supplied from a panel that supervises the wiring to the bell, but that is pretty much never done with 120v bells. If you wanted an alternative, a 120VAC relay at the bell tied to a trouble zone on the panel would supervise it. But it would be a huge pain the butt, getting trouble calls for power outages.

Of course the AHJ's around here require waterflow bells to have the same secondary power supply as the panel, so the bells are 24 VDC, and that simplifies the problem.
 
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Maybe I didn't know what I was doing, I hung a fire bell for the F/A people.
They told me that the fire bell was for leakage of the header or loose of pressurization on the system,
and I thought they said it doesn't report as F/A call-in,
but only as an audio alert for the owner of the building!
 
cadpoint said:
Maybe I didn't know what I was doing, I hung a fire bell for the F/A people.
They told me that the fire bell was for leakage of the header or loose of pressurization on the system,
and I thought they said it doesn't report as F/A call-in,
but only as an audio alert for the owner of the building!
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ive seen that. I have also seen setups with two water flow switches on the riser, one which turns the bell on, and a second one connected to the FACP.
 
Generally there are two sets of contacts on the pressure switch, tampers (valve), flows, etc. One is usually connected to the 120VAC exterior bell, while the other connects to the FACP. It does need to be dedicated, marked, and locked on like described above.

Usually the EC installs the 120VAC side and exterior appliance, the FA people do the 12/24VDC side, interior appliances and FACP. Usually the bell/horn/strobe outside is on the 120VAC side. Interior horn/strobes are on the FACP side.

I say usually because usually;) it's up to the AHJ in your area...

Jim
 
cadpoint said:
Maybe I didn't know what I was doing, I hung a fire bell for the F/A people.
They told me that the fire bell was for leakage of the header or loose of pressurization on the system,
and I thought they said it doesn't report as F/A call-in,
but only as an audio alert for the owner of the building!
Click to expand...

I think that, if you have a water flow probably its connected to a FACP or a Comercial Burglar Alarm,although i found last week one stand alone with a 120 VAC Bell.For me,the Bell (120 VAC,24 DC,water,etc) is for make it easy to Firefigthers find the Fire Department Connection plugs to supply water to Sprinkler System.And has sense,at least for me, when the bell sound is different to the horn sound.Is common too, find the sign:"....when your hear the bell...call 911" near to the bell.
The question is: Must be supervised a water flow bell, always? When is a new installation and you are on charge is easy,but when is an update and you have the FACP 400 feet away, the FACP's Circuit Breaker another 300' from the FACP and the bell.What do you do ,guys? Close your eyes and go ahead?I don't like that way.The easy solution is, take power for the first 120VAC oulet or juntion box and connect a 120VAC bell to the water flow,But I think that is not the best, and isn't as per code.
 
epsilon said:
I
The question is: Must be supervised a water flow bell, always? When is a new installation and you are on charge is easy,but when is an update and you have the FACP 400 feet away, the FACP's Circuit Breaker another 300' from the FACP and the bell.What do you do ,guys? Close your eyes and go ahead?I don't like that way.The easy solution is, take power for the first 120VAC oulet or juntion box and connect a 120VAC bell to the water flow,But I think that is not the best, and isn't as per code.
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Technically all notification appliance circuits require supervision. The solution between your example and going to the back to the FACP CB is a dedicated CB with lock and label. At least you did some due diligence and didn't take the easiest way out.

Hopefully all new installations are using a 24 V bell along with the 120 V if used. The power goes out then there is no sprinkler bell. This will delay the FD from being alerted to a waterflow. Their procedures change when you hear the bell.
 
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I have seen many of these with the 120 volt bell, none of which was required to be supervised, as others have said, usually one set of contacts on the flow switch runs the bell, while the other set is connected to a supervised fire alarm panel. Usually the bell is on a dedicated circuit that is not the same circuit as the fire alarm panel.
 
hillbilly1 said:
I have seen many of these with the 120 volt bell, none of which was required to be supervised, as others have said, usually one set of contacts on the flow switch runs the bell, while the other set is connected to a supervised fire alarm panel. Usually the bell is on a dedicated circuit that is not the same circuit as the fire alarm panel.
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All too often this occurs, now the waterflow bell does not have a secondary power supply, I find that unfortunate.
 
nhfire77 said:
All too often this occurs, now the waterflow bell does not have a secondary power supply, I find that unfortunate.
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These are on engineered blueprints, drawn as such. I think it is the same as smoke detectors in a residence, since they are not supervised, they are not considered a "life safety system".:)
Since the bell is located outside, it is just a semi-redundant system to notify there is a possible fire in the building. Most fire alarm systems do not have external notification, except for the autodialer that calls the local monitoring station.
 
nhfire77 said:
Typically the 120AC is the same circuit as a FACP/NAC panel so that when they lose power they report the trouble, no need for redundant supervision
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Never seen that, always a separate and dedicated circuit, also sometimes a tapped ahead of the 'main' service disconnect with its own small service disconnect.


nhfire77 said:
All too often this occurs, now the water flow bell does not have a secondary power supply, I find that unfortunate.
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The 120 bell is already a back up to the fire system.
 
iwire said:
Never seen that, always a separate and dedicated circuit, also sometimes a tapped ahead of the 'main' service disconnect with its own small service disconnect.




The 120 bell is already a back up to the fire system.
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Heard of, never seen the separate disconnect. Ive done work in 10 states. It must be an AHJ thing.

A 120 bell is not the back up a water flow bell is a fundamental requirement (Any water flow bell, that is, not just a 120V) IMHO

Specifically, any notification appliance must have its connections monitored for integrity-- NFPA 72 7.3.6

A 120 bell by itself, whether the other side of the switch is monitored, its not being monitored by anything.
 
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hillbilly1 said:
...Most fire alarm systems do not have external notification, except for the autodialer that calls the local monitoring station.
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Im not sure if its in 72, maybe just all the AHJ's require it but, I have never done a fire alarm that didn't have either a strobe or horn strobe on the exterior of the building.

My reason that I defend the need for the bell to be supervised it that goes back in history with the water motor gong (which was not supervised but thats not what Im getting at). When a sprinkler bell was sounding, water was flowing, regardless of why. Now, they are all electric but the FD has to assume there is a fire if there is a bell sounding, this changes how they do things once they hear it. You can call and tell the FD you hear an alarm but when they hear a rapid bell like that, it still means something. Maybe its like Pavlov's Dog, only firemen.
 
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nhfire77 said:
Im not sure if its in 72, maybe just all the AHJ's require it but, I have never done a fire alarm that didn't have either a strobe or horn strobe on the exterior of the building.] [/QUOTE

Could be a state or local code, back when I was installing dinosaurs (non-addressable systems) they did not. But codes change, and it may be national by now.
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Security101 said:
As a former FF I would just clarify that we would assume the bell is sounding, not necessarily that water is flowing, but we get your point! ;)

Jim
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As a current professional Firefighter, bell=waterflow=fire or broken pipe OR the alarm/sprinkler guy goofed up.
 
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