Me vs. the customer

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480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
I often read comparisons of the construction business to doctors, lawyers, dentists and now something as mundane as a grocery store. In my humble opinion, these are not valid comparisons.

The grocery store sells commodities. Construction requires trained craftsmen to build hand crafted, custom installations to unique customer specs while complying with a myriad of codes and regulations. It is not like buying a case of coke at the store.

The electrician, the plumber, HVAC guy and other skilled tradesmen supply their talent, at below market rates, the GC claims he provides some sort of managerial service but those claims are ridiculous. Most of the time, the presence of the GC actually degrades the final product.

But is the gallon of milk the store buys from the wholesaler any different than the gallon of milk you buy from the grocery store? Has it somehow improved while in the possession of the store? Is it more valuable?

What about all the skilled craftsmen that actually made that gallon of milk? The dairy farmer? The truck drivers? The folks who manufacture the containers?
 

jes25

Senior Member
Location
Midwest
Actually curent data suggests GC's are declining and construction management agreements increasing. Construction management agreements further remove them from risk.

GC's do expose themselves to a huge risk. I think they should profit from this, that said I don't like working for them.
 

RH1

Member
But is the gallon of milk the store buys from the wholesaler any different than the gallon of milk you buy from the grocery store? Has it somehow improved while in the possession of the store? Is it more valuable?

What about all the skilled craftsmen that actually made that gallon of milk? The dairy farmer? The truck drivers? The folks who manufacture the containers?

Milk is a commodity. The truck driver that drove the milk from the dairy farm is not involved in making the product and the dairy farm does not have some weird unscrupulous and unsavory character artificially wedged between the farmer and the workers like we have in construction.

Actually curent data suggests GC's are declining and construction management agreements increasing. Construction management agreements further remove them from risk.

GC's do expose themselves to a huge risk. I think they should profit from this, that said I don't like working for them.

Indeed, GC's expose not only themselves to risk, but everyone they come in contact with. They are to risk what Mary was to Typhoid.
 

bradleyelectric

Senior Member
Location
forest hill, md
The public does indeed view us like this, and we have general contractors to thank for this. 99% of all the rip off stories you hear involve general contractors. The remaining 1% of stories involve roofers.

I have never in my entire life seen a news story about an EC that ripped off a customer. But since the public cannot discern the difference between general and specialty contractors, we get the bad rep generated by GC's.

Don't put much weight into new stories. They are to sell commercial time and influence a train of thought. Don't take them as any more than that.

We have much more than general contractors to thank for this.

We have the electrician that bids $2000. to do the electric in the custom kitchen that I gave a proposal of over $6k to blame for it. When he worked for someone else his package was worth ballpark $50/hr. It took him and a guy he pulled out of the woods 3-4 days (I know 1 the guys that was on site for 2 days and said it didn't look like he was going to finish it the next) to rough it in and 2-3 days to trim it.

Figure his time alone at what his package as an employee was worth would be at least $2K. Probably $2800. That doesn't include woodsman's wages (obviously untaxed, not that I feel they should be collecting what they do), materials or business expenses.

There are far to many electricians running around contracting for far less than what they would be making if they sold the van and bought a decent pickup and went back to work for someone else.

The people that do bad work are to blame. I see an awful lot of electric work that is of just plain poor quality. Some of it is done by people that are homeowners. Some of it is done by handymen. Some of it is done by people moonlighting and some of it is licensed contractors. Make no mistake. They cheapen the trade.

Homeowners thinking you should be making less than what your true expenses are, are to blame. They need us to continue to educate them that half the check they are writing goes to the government in 1 form or another. Most of the rest of it goes to bank fees and interest. By the time the automakers, phone companies, insurance companies, gas companies, unbillable time and various other expenses get through with us we are making about what they figure we should per hour with a little profit. These are things they can relate to.

I?m thinking most of our problems are self inflicted. I?d like to blame it on them, but that wouldn?t even be self serving. I can make sure I?m doing my part. That is what will go towards actually doing something constructive.
 

bradleyelectric

Senior Member
Location
forest hill, md
Milk is a commodity. The truck driver that drove the milk from the dairy farm is not involved in making the product and the dairy farm does not have some weird unscrupulous and unsavory character artificially wedged between the farmer and the workers like we have in construction.



Indeed, GC's expose not only themselves to risk, but everyone they come in contact with. They are to risk what Mary was to Typhoid.

I'm thinking you need to just stay away from whoever it is that gives you the impression of GC's whether it is a bar buddy or a GC.

There is a great value in assembling all the things needed to accomplish something. That would be whether it is building a bank branch, a bathroom, or breakfast. Anytime you put pieces together there should be enough compensation to do it. The best GC should be able to assemble a team that can pretty much do the project without his input. Everyone knows what to do and when and everything goes smooth. I'd much rather work for someone like that than someone that has to constantly be on everyone to do what they are supposed to be doing, is always on my back because they don't know what they are doing, or I need to call multiple times a week to remind them they owe me money (yes Virginia, if you are late paying me I am the squeeky wheel).
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
I don't know how this thread got to GC's and milk but..............I would politely tell her that if the repair shop put it in writing that my work caused the TV to fail, I would gladly purchase, deliver and set up a new TV.

I would of course go directly to the TV repair place and call them on it.
 

mivey

Senior Member
I met a GC recently that is a real stand-up guy. He was all over the job making sure the different contractors were maintaining quality...even got his hands dirty. He will also tell you when you should deal directly with the contractor if he thinks he will add little to the process. A rarity indeed.
 
I met a GC recently that is a real stand-up guy. He was all over the job making sure the different contractors were maintaining quality...even got his hands dirty. He will also tell you when you should deal directly with the contractor if he thinks he will add little to the process. A rarity indeed.

My largest customer is now a GC of this caliber. Knows how to schedule, pays promptly, does quality work, appreciates quality work (and is willing to pay for it), sends me plenty of customers. One reason he likes us is that we clean up after ourselves, as he likes a clean job site.

When he asks us to jump, I say "How many guys, how high, thank you"
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
I don't like GC's either, but it must not be that great of a racket, because I'm not tempted to become one.

Just today I was talking with a GC I do regular work with. We were discussing what it takes to get a permit in our respective trades. Apparently in his town the building department has anywhere between 1 and 30 days to approve his building permit.

I can pull the permit within 5 days after starting the work.

He said, "Yet you guys are the ones that make all the money."

I replied, "Yeah, and we're also risking our lives."

He then conceded and said, "Yeah, you and plumbers...(heck) if I go fix a horribly clogged toilet."
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I replied, "Yeah, and we're also risking our lives."


What type of electrical work are people doing that risk their lives? I figure the most dangerous part of the job is driving to and from the job. The only reason that's dangerous is because you don't really have any control over the situation. Doing electrical work you really should have control over the situation and not do anything that's dangerous.

If anyone feels they are risking their lives doing electrical work they should get some safety training or look for other types of work to do. Electrical is not dangerous work if done properly, it's only dangerous if the workers make it so.

We are not circus performers and we are not on the job to do some death defying act. Our job is to do a safe and compliant install while making sure that we are not taking chances. :)
 

bradleyelectric

Senior Member
Location
forest hill, md
What type of electrical work are people doing that risk their lives? I figure the most dangerous part of the job is driving to and from the job. The only reason that's dangerous is because you don't really have any control over the situation. Doing electrical work you really should have control over the situation and not do anything that's dangerous.

If anyone feels they are risking their lives doing electrical work they should get some safety training or look for other types of work to do. Electrical is not dangerous work if done properly, it's only dangerous if the workers make it so.

We are not circus performers and we are not on the job to do some death defying act. Our job is to do a safe and compliant install while making sure that we are not taking chances. :)

The snoozin dog does it again!!
 

RH1

Member
I don't think that the electrical part is generally dangerous, but I do change out service panels live that are fed from underground, that's pretty hairy. What is dangerous is working in proximity to the average construction worker, they are the hazard. Falling and tripping on jobsite debris is becoming more common these days too.
 

iMuse97

Senior Member
Location
Chicagoland
I don't think that the electrical part is generally dangerous, but I do change out service panels live that are fed from underground, that's pretty hairy. What is dangerous is working in proximity to the average construction worker, they are the hazard. Falling and tripping on jobsite debris is becoming more common these days too.

Bet your insurance doesn't cover you for this job if there is an accident.
 

RH1

Member
Bet your insurance doesn't cover you for this job if there is an accident.

You'd lose that bet. Anyway, that's how we do it here in Los Angeles, there's no other way. Say a house has a 100 Amp flush panel fed from a 3" underground conduit from the POCO (DWP or SCE). Those utilities DO NOT disconnect service laterals or service drops for that matter. When upgrading these panels we do it hot.

I saw/chip out the stucco surrounding the panel, line the existing panel with cardboard, carefully remove and tape up the service conductors and pull the old panel upward and out, and carefully put the new panel over the conductors, etc.

I'm a safety minded, conservative guy, I avoid unnecessary risks, but here in So Cal, we must do these resi panels live, ask anyone.

:)
 
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