Neutral issues

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jwnagy

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I went on a service call a few days ago in response to a homeowner reporting dimming lights, appliances shutting down, and surge protectors burning up.

What I found is perhaps the most extreme case of failed service conductors I have seen in the 30years I have been an electrician, due to shoddy workmanship done in 1983 (the date of the final inspection per the inspection sticker).

When I arrived, I found things exactly as described to me. These are townhomes that are fed from the street to a 1200 amp service cabinet, with a 6-meter stack bussed on each side. The main disconnect (150 amp, Cutler Hammer type CC) for the dwellings are next to the meters, so the feeders to each individual home are sub-feeders. The wires were contained in a 2" PVC conduit at both the panel and the meter stack.

I noted that as the refrigerator cycled on and off, the lights on other circuits on the first floor would dim, while others got very bright, with a corresponding drop in voltage in a number of receptacles at the same time. Unplugging the clothes dryer resulted in the lights going out in the kitchen and the small appliance circuit for the refrigerator going out as well.

The first thing I checked was to make sure then right size wire was used and in the right combination. The neutral bar was isolated from the ground, fed with the correct size insulated wire, and there were no jumpers from neutral to ground. A #4 wire was run from the main water service to the ground bar and a separate, insulated ground conductor was run from the main service to the sub-panel.

My "wiggy showed somthing was a-miss when I attempted to check voltage avialiblity. I changed over to my Fuke 75 and found these readings:

"A" Phase to Neutral - 187 volts
"B" Phase to neutral - 61 volts

I shut down all of the branch circuit breakers and then turned them back on one breaker at a time while monitoring the voltages:

"A" phase to ground varied anywhere from 138 to 155 volts, and "B" phase also varied about the same, depending on what breakers were being turned on.

I took a voltage reading from Neutral to Ground and found 22 volts.

I shut down the main breaker outside and all of the branch circuit breakers inside and checked continuity between ground and neutral in the sub-panel. I had no continuity until I turned a branch circuit breaker on. I checked continuity at the main, in the meter stack, and found continuity.

At this point I informed the homeowner that the neutral and the ground wire feeding the panel (sub-panel) in their townhome had been compromised. I dug down under the meter stack to see if the conduit going to the townhome had been broken due to settling of the foundation and/or footers. What I found was that the conduit was just a sleeve and that 10" below grade were direct burial single conductors going down and presumably going under the slab (homes built without basements) to the panel in thier house. I then found two direct burial cables cut just below.

Sometime in the past, before the present homeowners bought 10 years ago, the cables feeding the home were damaged. I was able to determine that the damaged cables were the ungrounded conductors ("A" and "B" phase) and that instead of running all new feeders, they cut off the damaged wires, abandoning them in the ground, and then ran new phase wires around the house (couldn't go under the slab) and re-fed the panel. The neutral and ground were retained as they were, going under the slab, while the new "A" and "B" wires were run a different direction and are much longer.

So what we have is:

Broken Neutral wire in the slab
Broken ground in the slab, possibly by the same object
"A" and "B" conductors that are 40' longer than the neutral and ground wires and are not in the same trench
To top it off, the replaced conductors are only under 8" under the ground, no protection. There are so many code violations involved in this, it boggles the mind.

The result has been the loss of almost every major appliance in the house, including a large TV and all portable phones.

This afternoon we are running a temporary feed to the panel, until the homeowner can hash out how he will pay for this after hashing it out with his insurer.

The lesson for all of you guys out there just getting into the trade is that youmay think you've gotten away with something hinky, but it does come back to hount someone. In this instance, the owner is fortunate his home didn't burn.


Jeff Nagy

Master Electrician, State of Maryland
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Thanks for the story, and welcome to the forum. One sad aspect of this story is that even if the homeowners had paid to have a thorough home inspection before having bought the place, it is likely that this set of problems would not have been detected.
 

jwnagy

Member
I t really is sad.

While I was digging I was approached by an electrician who lives around the corner from this house, who told me that he worked on a similar problem two townhome clusters up from the job location, in the same development, and that the work found was just a shoddy.

This incident is not an isolated one in this development and its amazing that the county inspectors didn't catch this in 1983 when the homes were built.

I'm guessing that the cable isn't in conduit, as required, under the slab, and that settling of the footers/foundation has either severed the cables, or has driven something conductive into the cables.

Now the oweners are looking a many thousands of dollars to fix this and they shouldn't have to.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Jeff, welcome to the forum! :)

One sad aspect of this story is that even if the homeowners had paid to have a thorough home inspection before having bought the place, it is likely that this set of problems would not have been detected.
Had the original repair been permitted and inspected, this all could have been averted.
 

jwnagy

Member
I'm happy to say that my diagnosis was correct and the temporary feed has restored power safely to the house.

Now the digging starts for the permanent feeders. Just preliminary digging has revealed even more crud.....direct burial cable installed in alternating sizes of PVC....2" stuck inside 3" then 2" again and so on.

I'm going to take some photos and try to post them here.
 

erickench

Senior Member
Location
Brooklyn, NY
The neutral bar was isolated from the ground, fed with the correct size insulated wire, and there were no jumpers from neutral to ground. A #4 wire was run from the main water service to the ground bar and a separate, insulated ground conductor was run from the main service to the sub-panel.
I get a kick out of this one. The neutral being completely isolated and a ground wire running from the main service to the sub-panel. How does the fault current flow back to the utility? Via a line-to-line short circuit?:D
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
1000's of these events occur regularly, my philosophy or theorem(?) (how about the belief of a simpleton) has always been that "Electricity is a lot safer than we give it credit for, otherwise there would be a lot more fires."

And I have faith in Jeff as he was once worked with me.
 
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jwnagy

Member
EricKench,

The subpanel has a grounding electrode conductor between the ground bar and main waterpipe providing a path. I believe that whatever cut the neutral wire was also in contact with the ground wire.

It also looked like a path was being created through a few 240 volt-fed devices and through a few of the 120 volt branch circuits
 

jwnagy

Member
George Stoltz has a really fine explaination concerning this issue (paths to ground) that directly relates to EricK's question.

Ground and neutral are at the same potential (bonded to the same place at the first disconnect).

In this home the grounding path was through WHATEVER path to ground was availiable, depending on the resistance of the branch circuits involved. It was amazing to see this in practical application as I turned breakers on and off and watched my Fluke Meter readings.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
In this home the grounding path was through WHATEVER path to ground was availiable, depending on the resistance of the branch circuits involved. It was amazing to see this in practical application as I turned breakers on and off and watched my Fluke Meter readings.
If you even suspect a open neutral problem, it really isn't a good idea to be turning breakers off and on and watch the voltage changes. You may be increasing the damage to the equipment that will be seeing high and low voltages.
 

jwnagy

Member
I agree. That's why a few days earlier I had instructed the homeowners to unplug ALL of thier 120 volt devices. I also unplugged the range.

The homeowner also unplugged the dryer, which as I noted earlier, just exacerbated things.
 

jwnagy

Member
These are some photos I shot with my camera/phone.

You can see the that there were originaly 4 wires, all together, feeding the sub-panel. Two were abandoned (A/B phase) and you can see those in the ground, cut off. The other two wires left (Neutral and Ground) were left in place. Two new phase wires were installed, running in a completely different direction (around the house) making them about 40 feet longer than the neutral and ground wires.....and even that was bootlegged! When they installed the conductors they apparently damaged the insulation on one of the new condcutors and just wrapped it in electrical tape and threw it in the ground.


Shoddy all the way around.
 

wawireguy

Senior Member
If I were you I'd counsel the homeowners to see if there is a paper trail at the inspectors office of who might have done this work. If a permit was pulled for re-feading the service the owners would seem to have a good case taking the contractor to court. Also they might be able to check with the prior owners. See if they had the work done and by whom. There might be a copy of the check used to pay the contractor that could be used against them. I hate hacks with a passion.
 

jwnagy

Member
Another concern to me, if you look at the photo that shows the conductors close-up.....there's another unit that apparently had some feeder damage as well, and the same kind of work was done to correct the problem, except its just one conductor.
 

benaround

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
That service looks like 3-3" conduits, is it a single phase 1200a ? Anyway, it looks like you

will be busy for a little while here. I'm not a violent person, but, I'd like to find the hacks

that did this and cut their fingers off with my dikes, gently of course.
 
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