WA Admin Calcs Help

[wawireguy]

I got a 60% on it, barely failed it. But I have some questions about the test.

I had 2 dwelling unit calculations that I'm unsure of due to the test wording. Both of them did not list a dryer but did not mention omiting laundry loads like two other multifamily questions. I assumed that I should include the laundry circuit and omit adding a dryer as it was not listed as a load?

On one of the questions I had two ranges listed at 8kva each. One in each side of a duplex. I used a 65% demand factor off Table 220.55 Column B. 16000w x .65 = 10400w. Did I do that correctly?

I'll be back in a couple weeks to re-take that section. I need to clarify that dryer/laundry issue before taking it again. No way am I going to risk not passing it again based on vague test writing.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Well, I am not the best but for the Ranges I would use col.C and use 11kw.

The code does allow you to use col.B but I never understood why. Perhaps you can choose the lowest of the two????

As far as the laundry circuit is concerned you need to supply one for dwelling so you should calculate it in whether it is given or not. Art. 210.11(C)(2).. A dryer is not required so you shouldn't calculate that into the formula. I think :grin::grin:

 

[wawireguy]

Dennis,

I had assumed that Column C was for ranges over 8 3/4kW. How do I know which method to choose? Colum B or Column C? This test is frustrating!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis,

I had assumed that Column C was for ranges over 8 3/4kW. How do I know which method to choose? Colum B or Column C? This test is frustrating!

Col C states for Ranges not over 12 KW. So it is clear that it can be used for 8kw-- also look at Note 3- it explicitly states you can use Col C in Lieu of A or B.

I cannot answer your question as how you know which one to use other than the wording of the question which may state what is the smallest calculated load or something of that nature. My guess is the answer will almost always be Col. C but who knows...

 

[cpal]

usually question ask for minimum demand. If they did not !!

a question might be what size feeder load may be installed for 2 8kW ranges??

My guess 80A capacity.

If the question states what is the minimum feeder demand to supply two 8kW ranges I would use col B and pick the 10.4k.

If the question was vague, I encourage participants to appeal. Sometimes the board see the logic and caves. but you usually have a time limit. if you fail and the numbers are close 1 or 2 questions it's worth a review they let the test takers in MA see the questions they get wrong. If you can make a case they have granted a license.

 

[wawireguy]

I thought about appealing the test. I know I was weak in a few areas but some of the vague questions were frustrating. Sorta hard to appeal the test though as you don't get a copy of the test or your answers or your scribble sheets. Seems like it would be difficult to show your logic for a question answer without your work. Thanks for the heads up on the ranges Dennis. Have to admit that table isn't my strong point.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Thanks for the heads up on the ranges Dennis. Have to admit that table isn't my strong point.

You're welcome. I think many of us have had or still have issues with this table. I know I did and sometimes still do.

 

[westernexplorer]

I thought about appealing the test. I know I was weak in a few areas but some of the vague questions were frustrating. Sorta hard to appeal the test though as you don't get a copy of the test or your answers or your scribble sheets. Seems like it would be difficult to show your logic for a question answer without your work. Thanks for the heads up on the ranges Dennis. Have to admit that table isn't my strong point.

I know it can be frustrating, but save your powder on the appeal. I can promise you, Washington State went through these exams with expereinced eyes, Electrical Engineer's, Master Electrician's and Several top notch Electrical Inspector's and Electrical Plan's Examiners. No exam is perfect, but if you missed by more than 1 question, I can promise you, that something was misread somewhere. I took the exam last year in 2008 and missed 1 of the Major Calculations in part #3 and after re-thinking it many times, I was misunderstanding the question......

Hang in there, you will get it..... Good Luck...

 

[wawireguy]

Western, what's your take on the duplex calcs that do not mention laundry loads or have a dryer load listed? Do you assume that there is a laundry and calculate in the laundry 1500w load and omit any dryer load?

 

[tom baker]

Keep in mind the purpose of the Washington Exams is to ask you questions you typically don't encounter on the job, to see if you can find the answer (its open book). Also March 1 Washington goes to a new test format where all tests are random, currently there are five. The Oct 31 Rule changes requires you to wait two weeks to retake if you fail...

 

[wawireguy]

Thanks Tom, do you have any heads up on the calcs test? Especially the omiting dryer and laundry loads? Also I'm still confused as to how to calculate the load for two 8Kva ranges in a dwelling unit. Column B or Column C?

Thing I experienced, on the calcs section, is that you don't really have that much time to look things up. You pretty much need to be able to run dwelling and multifamily dwelling calcs from memory with only table look ups.

 

[charlie b]

. . . what's your take on the duplex calcs that do not mention laundry loads or have a dryer load listed?

My take:
(1) 220.54 does not give you the option of omitting the dryer load.
(2) 210.52(F) has an exception that allows you to omit the laundry circuit, for certain situations. If the test question does not explicitly call out those situations, then I believe you need to include the circuit.

 

[charlie b]

On one of the questions I had two ranges listed at 8kva each. One in each side of a duplex. I used a 65% demand factor off Table 220.55 Column B. 16000w x .65 = 10400w. Did I do that correctly?

Presuming you are calculating the combined load of both units, in order to size the feeer/service to the duplex as a whole, then yes you did. You could have used Column C, and simply said the load was 11,000 VA. But your method gave a smaller answer, and we are permitted to use the smaller answer. The author of the test question should have planned on using the smaller answer.

 

[charlie b]

I can promise you, Washington State went through these exams with expereinced eyes, Electrical Engineer's, Master Electrician's and Several top notch Electrical Inspector's and Electrical Plan's Examiners.

But what is also needed is the participation of an experienced technical writer. Knowing technical information and knowing how to write about it are two entirely different skill sets.

 

[wawireguy]

Whether or not to include a dryer and laundry load addition if it's not mentioned is my biggest question?

It's absurd that a test expects you to guess on that. Lets see take the test three times. Run a calc with them once, run without them once, maybe include a laundry circuit and assume there is a gas dryer. If the state gets lucky they get an extra $110.00. I know exactly how this test is written.

Thanks for the info Charlie. Maybe I can call a inspector and ask them if the laundry and dryer loads are required whether there is a laundry or not.

 

[wawireguy]

Thanks Charlie! You answered my question a few years back about the dryer load:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=56298&highlight=laundry

 

[westernexplorer]

Western, what's your take on the duplex calcs that do not mention laundry loads or have a dryer load listed? Do you assume that there is a laundry and calculate in the laundry 1500w load and omit any dryer load?

wawireguy,

The NEC requires you to include the laundry circuit, same as a standard dwelling. Dryer circuits are not required and are not calculated, unless installed (mentioned on the test).

I realize the frustration, but the test candidates continue to read more into the questions than there actually is. I have taken these Master's and Journeyman's tests from California to Connecticut to Florida and they are all very close in one respect. They are behind the modern world in the way we wire buildings.... These calculations are very simple as compared to what we "ACTUALLY" put in these building's and many test candidates read to much into the questions.

 

[wawireguy]

I'll get this test passed next time I'm hoping. Just have to muddle through a few issues with some more questions and I'll be ready. Seeing as I have the dryer issue down I won't have to think about it during the test. Not enough time to think about it when you are taking this thing.

 

[westernexplorer]

wawireguy,

You will do fine.... I know the time issue is a problem, I have always argued for a little more time on these exams, but, on the flip side. If we make it too easy, then the license will be worthless. So, lets keep the bar high, like some other professions. I'm telling you this, because I have been involved with helping write some of these exams in a couple of States and I can tell you with absolute certainty, there are other's involved in the making of these exams who think the process is to hard. Some States have even talked about removing the calculations from the exam. Thank God, we beat back that arguement.... I want you to carry that Master Electrician License, not have it carry you..... I hope you understand...... Good Luck.

 

[wawireguy]

Thanks Western! I think the test should be harder actually and give you more time. But not aim for obscure things. I do agree at keeping the bar where it's at though as far as difficulty. I actually won't be getting a masters license yet. Just a admin license to go with my j-card. I think after a certain amount of time I can combine the licenses. One step at a time... Appreciate the help!