6/4....6/3 w/g wire?

[kwired]

I see where you are coming from. Since more than one supply is needed does your unit in question still meet the definitions of self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly.

Possibly not. Don't know for sure but am guessing any spa meeting one of these definitions only requires one supply circuit, cannot say that I have ever hooked up a multi circuit unit.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Go back to my post #4...Because of the more than one breaker it is now a panel not a disconnect so it now falls under a feeder to a pool panel... and you cannot use 680.41 (c)

I know your area sees it that way but I don't. I think of that panel as a listed product of the packaged unit (spa equipment) and IMO is not part of the NEC wiring. This wire to the panel would then be a branch circuit and not a feeder. You are running a circuit to the listed equipment.

I can see this being argued either way but , of course, I am correct. :grin:

 

[curt swartz]

Dennis, I have never seen one of these panels built by the SPA manufacture. They are generic loadcenters with a couple of GFCI breakers installed. They don't have any special UL listings. No different than you purchasing a loadcenter and breakers from your supplier. The SPA retailers sell them as a convenience to the homeowner and to make a few bucks.

 

[kwired]

Dennis, I have never seen one of these panels built by the SPA manufacture. They are generic loadcenters with a couple of GFCI breakers installed. They don't have any special UL listings. No different than you purchasing a loadcenter and breakers from your supplier. The SPA retailers sell them as a convenience to the homeowner and to make a few bucks.

my thoughts also. for it to be part of the Spa I would think it would have to be installed in or on the spa at the factory.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, I have never seen one of these panels built by the SPA manufacture. They are generic loadcenters with a couple of GFCI breakers installed. They don't have any special UL listings. No different than you purchasing a loadcenter and breakers from your supplier. The SPA retailers sell them as a convenience to the homeowner and to make a few bucks.

Curt I thought the op was describing a breaker box that was part of the tub installed under the tub. You provide power to it and all the breakers and electronics are installed in the box. Some just have breakers for the components. In either case if it is install as part of the tubs listing then I stand by what I said.

 

[curt swartz]

Dennis, if it is part of the tub I agree with you. Many of the units now require 2 separate circuits (commonly 1 2-pole 30 and 1 2-pole 20). The most common way to connect these tubs is to install a small 4 circuit panel near the tub. This is what I think the OP is asking about.

 

[iwire]

Go back to my post #4...Because of the more than one breaker it is now a panel not a disconnect so it now falls under a feeder to a pool panel... and you cannot use 680.41 (c)

So if I plug in a plug strip with a built in breaker to a branch circuit that branch circuit suddenly becomes a feeder?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, if it is part of the tub I agree with you. Many of the units now require 2 separate circuits (commonly 1 2-pole 30 and 1 2-pole 20). The most common way to connect these tubs is to install a small 4 circuit panel near the tub. This is what I think the OP is asking about.

If that is the case then I believe you have a violation of 225.30. The tub would be a separate structure in many cases.

 

[gotmud]

All I can tell you..(trust me I've questioned my inspectors on it) is if the packaged hot tub sitting on a deck or patio is just a strait 240v tub (one circuit) and you use an a/c disconnect and 1 gfi breaker at the main panel then you can use 680.41 (c) and run a romex through the house and poke outside.....BUT if the tub needs (which seems about every tub I do now) 2 240v circuits to run it, it now falls under a sub panel for pools because it no longer is a disconnect because of multiple breakers feeding one unit....It is now a sub panel so I can no longer use 680.41 (c)....according to the inspector....

 

[iwire]

All I can tell you..(trust me I've questioned my inspectors on it) is if the packaged hot tub sitting on a deck or patio is just a strait 240v tub (one circuit) and you use an a/c disconnect and 1 gfi breaker at the main panel then you can use 680.41 (c) and run a romex through the house and poke outside.....BUT if the tub needs (which seems about every tub I do now) 2 240v circuits to run it, it now falls under a sub panel for pools because it no longer is a disconnect because of multiple breakers feeding one unit....It is now a sub panel so I can no longer use 680.41 (c)....according to the inspector....

Can you show me this in the NEC?

No.

So while it may be what your local area is doing it is not what the NEC is requiring.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

All I can tell you..(trust me I've questioned my inspectors on it) is if the packaged hot tub sitting on a deck or patio is just a strait 240v tub (one circuit) and you use an a/c disconnect and 1 gfi breaker at the main panel then you can use 680.41 (c) and run a romex through the house and poke outside.....BUT if the tub needs (which seems about every tub I do now) 2 240v circuits to run it, it now falls under a sub panel for pools because it no longer is a disconnect because of multiple breakers feeding one unit....It is now a sub panel so I can no longer use 680.41 (c)....according to the inspector....

Ask your inspector why the tub does not get red tagged for article 225.30. Generally, you cannot have more than one feed going to a structure.

 

[curt swartz]

Can you show me this in the NEC?

No.

So while it may be what your local area is doing it is not what the NEC is requiring.

Bob, you are taking the stance that this is branch circuit and not a feeder feeding the "sub" panel?

 

[curt swartz]

Ask your inspector why the tub does not get red tagged for article 225.30. Generally, you cannot have more than one feed going to a structure.

Dennis, I don't think gotmud's customer would be 2 happy if he opened up that can of worms. I'm sorry but you can't connect that $10,000 spa you just purchased.

The NEC doesn't go into much detail about the definition of a structure so this leaves it open for interpretation. These SPA's are listed as portable equipment so that could have a impact.

 

[LarryFine]

Bob, you are taking the stance that this is branch circuit and not a feeder feeding the "sub" panel?

He can if the local breakers are supplemental, meaning that the cabling to the spa panel is still branch-circuit wiring.

 

[curt swartz]

He can if the local breakers are supplemental, meaning that the cabling to the spa panel is still branch-circuit wiring.

Larry, if there was a single circuit breaker in the sub panel that was the not required for overcurrent protection then I agree. The SPA's being discussed here require 2 circuits (usually 1 30 amp and 1 20 amp) so the panel needs to be supplied by a minimum of 50 amps. I don't see how you consider the 2 breakers supplying the tub supplementary and the supply feeding the panel a branch circuit.

 

[gotmud]

Larry, if there was a single circuit breaker in the sub panel that was the not required for overcurrent protection then I agree. The SPA's being discussed here require 2 circuits (usually 1 30 amp and 1 20 amp) so the panel needs to be supplied by a minimum of 50 amps. I don't see how you consider the 2 breakers supplying the tub supplementary and the supply feeding the panel a branch circuit.

Curt, sounds like you have the just of what I have going on here.. So let's take this back a notch and ask this....Ok I have a hot tub that is going out on a back patio (a standard everyday one that is prepackaged that they haul in on a trailor, set on the patio and leave). The tub company leaves a 6 circut main lug little panel with 1 2pole 20 and 1 2pole 30 Gfi breakers already in it to feed the tub. The spec sheet says feed the subpanel with 50 amps. How would you feed the sub? My inspectors are saying you can't use 680.41(c) because that is for a single circuit tub and these particular tubs have two breakers which makes that a feeder, which is feeding pool equipt. Talk amongest yourselfs...

Now of course I could pipe around the house (which homeowners hate) or pipe something across the inside of the house (which sucks because of ductwork and plumbing pipes ect...) OR I could find this 6/4 with a insulated ground and make everybody happy....See what I'm getting at trying to find this wire....Plus it's cheaper for the customer because I don't have to send my pipe bender there...Run a piece of Romex across a basement or pipe across the basement, which seems easier to you????

 

[LarryFine]

Run a piece of Romex across a basement or pipe across the basement, which seems easier to you????

Only this:

1. Go back to that job and ask whoever you have to ask to find out where it came from.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, I don't think gotmud's customer would be 2 happy if he opened up that can of worms. I'm sorry but you can't connect that $10,000 spa you just purchased.

The NEC doesn't go into much detail about the definition of a structure so this leaves it open for interpretation. These SPA's are listed as portable equipment so that could have a impact.

That's my point. You would not design a product that is UL listed and could not be installed. This is why I said what I did. If the unit has a panel with the dp breakers installed then you are providing a branch circuit and the panel is part of the tub listing and would not fall under 680.25.

If you supply 2 branch circuits to the tub then you are in violation depending on where the tub is installed. I see it very differently then the inspector and I have not come across a tub that needed two branch circuits unless it was part of the package.

 

[gotmud]

sorry the code I keep posting is wrong the code referance is 680.42 (c) not 680.41 (c)

 

[One-eyed Jack]

sorry the code I keep posting is wrong the code referance is 680.42 (c) not 680.41 (c)

I would say that 680.42(c) permits a single circuit.