driveway heat trace

[slick 50]

Has anyone ever heard of an inpector wanting all the circuits that feeds ice and snow melting equipment to have a simutaneous trip and disconnect. An inspector is requiring the 4 two pole breakers feeding the heat trace to be all connected by a breaker handle tie and we say that you can not even buy a handl tie this large. He says that you can install two pole handle ties between the two pole breakers such as one handle tie connecting A and B phase of two seperate 2 pole breakers.....What do you think about that?

Thanks
Bob:-?

 

[Buck Parrish]

Remove the existing handle ties, move it in between each breaker, a little epoxy will help hold it. I can't imagine it working correctly as far as tripping the circuit though,
For turning them all off, it would work but a disco would work better.

NEC 424. 19 In that area seems to be the code reference

 

[jwjrw]

Never heard of it and Ive only heard of a requirement like that with mwbc but that dosent mean there isnt one.

 

[jwjrw]

Remove the existing handle ties, move it in between each breaker, a little epoxy will help hold it. I can't imagine it working correctly as far as tripping the circuit though,
For turning them all off, it would work but a disco would work better.

NEC 424. 19 In that area seems to be the code reference

And I doubt the handle ties would be listed for use in that way.

 

[Buck Parrish]

If it was his suggestion you might try it.

Though it would be better to put them in a panel dedicated to snow melting with a main breaker. And a means to lock the panel.

 

[jwjrw]

If it was his suggestion you might try it.

Though it would be better to put them in a panel dedicated to snow melting with a main breaker. And a means to lock the panel.

I would want the code ref. I cant believe he would reccommend using something in a way that it was not listed to pass inspection.

 

[Buck Parrish]

I would want the code ref. I cant believe he would reccommend using something in a way that it was not listed to pass inspection.

Me either...

 

[RICK NAPIER]

It makes no sense to me.

 

[jwjrw]

It makes no sense to me.

It makes no since to me either. When you have 15k heat do you have to tie both breakers with a handle tie also? I think not....

 

[Sierrasparky]

I would either place all Ice melt circuits in a panel and have a main or have each circuit connected to a common relay and a switch for disco.
Or maybe some kind of shunt trip set up.
I would not install anything that is not code or listed.

 

[jwjrw]

I would either place all Ice melt circuits in a panel and have a main or have each circuit connected to a common relay and a switch for disco.
Or maybe some kind of shunt trip set up.
I would not install anything that is not code or listed.

Mr Inspector what code art are you citing? You dont know? Ahhhh well I think Im ok due to all of the above reasons.

 

[pfalcon]

420.19 applies if all four heater legs have common components such as a single controller. It does not apply if you have four independent systems with their own heaters, controllers, and supplementary OCPD.

Establish if you have (not 420.19) four independent systems or (420.19) one system with four legs.

 

[jwjrw]

420.19 applies if all four heater legs have common components such as a single controller. It does not apply if you have four independent systems with their own heaters, controllers, and supplementary OCPD.

Establish if you have (not 420.19) four independent systems or (420.19) one system with four legs.

Are you in 08 or 05 code? I didnt find that in 08. What does it say?

 

[mivey]

He says that you can install two pole handle ties between the two pole breakers such as one handle tie connecting A and B phase of two seperate 2 pole breakers.....What do you think about that?

Thanks
Bob:-?

I think your inspector was a hack in a previous life.

 

[pfalcon]

NFPA70:2008:240.19 Disconnecting Means.
Means shall be provided to simultaneously disconnect the heater, motor controller(s), an supplementary overcurrent protective device(s) of all fixed electric space-heating equipment from all ungrounded conductors. ...

Be careful in reading. It would be obvious this was per system if you were talking about a heated kitchen floor and a separate heated driveway. Separate the driveway into four separate systems and some people will get confused thinking it's just one system.

And that's the key to this section.

Establish if you have (not 420.19) four independent systems or (420.19) one system with four legs.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Ice melting equipment?:-?:grin:

 

[Sierrasparky]

Some people who actually live in an area where this is winter (not just one season ) like where you live, actually get a thing called ICE. Ice is that slippery stuff that can create a pretty good head ache if one falls.

So in the infinite wisdom of engineering where is was thought that electricity was cheap and plentiful they created heated cables to keep your walks and driveways nice warm and snuggly slippery free!.

 

[jwjrw]

Some people who actually live in an area where this is winter (not just one season ) like where you live, actually get a thing called ICE. Ice is that slippery stuff that can create a pretty good head ache if one falls.

So in the infinite wisdom of engineering where is was thought that electricity was cheap and plentiful they created heated cables to keep your walks and driveways nice warm and snuggly slippery free!.

Is this a once opon a time story?

 

[prh1700]

According to my old chemistry teacher, I am not qualified to provide an answer to anything pertaining to ice. The question on the exam went something like:"Briefly explain what hard water is". My brief explanation was "ICE"

 

[steve66]

Sorry, this doesn't help you case much, but look at fig. 4 of this GE instruction manual:

http://www.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/Installation and Instruction|DEH-41399|generic



Steve