Cee

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A/A Fuel GTX

A/A Fuel GTX

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WI & AZ
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Electrician
If there is no steel in the footing, do I still have to install a CEE or could I choose to drive rods, assuming no other electrodes are present?
 
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Code says "where avaialble".. if it is not there, you are not required to add.
 
As many of you know I am a big supporter of the CEE. This is a section that is interpreted differently in different areas. Around here it is basically ignored even if there is rebar. The reasoning is that the rebar is not available when the EC gets there.

I think that is a bogus interpretation and wish the code would make this a "you shall" deal......

That being said, it would my opinion that if there is a new footing going in, with or without steel, then a CEE needs to be installed.

I would do it regardless of the local rules.
 
Maybe it should be part of the concrete guys responsibility kind of like how we hook up to water heaters, AC condensing units, etal that we didn't install.
 
This exception to 250.50 makes me also wonder that the intent is as I described it.

Exception: Concrete-encased electrodes of existing buildings or structures shall not be required to be part of the grounding electrode system where the steel reinforcing bars or rods are not accessible for use without disturbing the concrete.
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A/A Fuel GTX said:
Maybe it should be part of the concrete guys responsibility kind of like how we hook up to water heaters, AC condensing units, etal that we didn't install.
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In some areas the concrete workers bend the rebar out of the footer so it can be accessed at a later date. These issues can be worked out.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
As many of you know I am a big supporter of the CEE. This is a section that is interpreted differently in different areas. Around here it is basically ignored even if there is rebar. The reasoning is that the rebar is not available when the EC gets there.

I think that is a bogus interpretation and wish the code would make this a "you shall" deal......

That being said, it would my opinion that if there is a new footing going in, with or without steel, then a CEE needs to be installed.

I would do it regardless of the local rules.
Click to expand...



I agree, I always use them even if I have to go to the site on pour day. It beats the heck out of driving rods. ANd I trust it much more.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
In some areas the concrete workers bend the rebar out of the footer so it can be accessed at a later date. These issues can be worked out.
Click to expand...

Thats how I normally work it out with the concrete guy but sometimes they don't use rebar and they dig, form and pour the footing all in one day. It makes it nearly impossible to get the 20' of #4 in before the pour. Scheduling is difficult due to weather conditions, etc so many of these footings are put in with no warning.
 
augie47 said:
Code says "where avaialble".. if it is not there, you are not required to add.
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I believe before the 2005 code that was the language now it says

All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present
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Which means that if it is there it must be used. If it is not there you can put in the minimum of 20 feet of rebar if you desire or a minimum of #4 copper. you could also dig your own trench fill it with concrete and have rebar or #4 in that and you still have a CEE if that is what you really want.

Before this change in wording in 05? many people around here never even heard of CEE. Inspectors were not making us ground rebar because footings were already done before electrician ever gets there and rebar was not available like the wording of 250.50 said. Now because of change in wording it is there and you will use it. They will allow you to install your own CEE if it is not done the first time. I have not had to do this but I believe they want it installed close to where the original footing is installed. You can and I have broken out concrete to access the rebar in the footing but I am not sure it is a good idea for the structural integrity.

Dennis Alwon said:
As many of you know I am a big supporter of the CEE. This is a section that is interpreted differently in different areas. Around here it is basically ignored even if there is rebar. The reasoning is that the rebar is not available when the EC gets there.

I think that is a bogus interpretation and wish the code would make this a "you shall" deal......
Click to expand...

Read 250.50 again it says:

that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together
Click to expand...

That being said, it would my opinion that if there is a new footing going in, with or without steel, then a CEE needs to be installed.

I would do it regardless of the local rules.[/quote]

There are times when reinforcement is not required in the footing or coated reinforcement is used. I have seen concrete with fiberglass strands mixed in it and it supposedly does not need extra reinforcement.
 
A/A Fuel GTX said:
Thats how I normally work it out with the concrete guy but sometimes they don't use rebar and they dig, form and pour the footing all in one day. It makes it nearly impossible to get the 20' of #4 in before the pour. Scheduling is difficult due to weather conditions, etc so many of these footings are put in with no warning.
Click to expand...

The building contractors need to be trained and they have to learn to take it seriously. If they ever do start enforcing he will start remembering after chopping the concrete a few times.
 
kwired said:
Read 250.50 again it says:

There are times when reinforcement is not required in the footing or coated reinforcement is used. I have seen concrete with fiberglass strands mixed in it and it supposedly does not need extra reinforcement.
Click to expand...

I am not sure of your point here. My opinion is that if there is a footing being poured without rebar than 20' of #4 should be required to be installed. The code does not say this but it would seem like the appropriate thing to do since it is accessible. In one case the rebar is there because someone else installs it so we must use it. Why not require the 20' of #4 if the footer is available. This may not be as good a CEE as the rebar but it surely is better than 2 rods in most areas.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I am not sure of your point here. My opinion is that if there is a footing being poured without rebar than 20' of #4 should be required to be installed. The code does not say this but it would seem like the appropriate thing to do since it is accessible. In one case the rebar is there because someone else installs it so we must use it. Why not require the 20' of #4 if the footer is available. This may not be as good a CEE as the rebar but it surely is better than 2 rods in most areas.
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My point is that if is not there you do not have to put it there.

I don't disagree that the CEE is a better electrode than almost any rod or ring. If I have the opportunity to throw 20 of # 4 in while the footing is poured I certainly will if there is no rebar otherwise. Footing quite often is usually done before I get a call to do any work however.

If you put in 20' of #4 you are intentionally making an electrode.

If you have a footing with rebar in it then it is already an electrode and 250.50 says you shall use it.

If the water pipe or building steel meet respective definitions of an electrode you must also use them.

If they do not meet the definition of an electrode you are not required to make them an electrode.
 
kwired said:
My point is that if is not there you do not have to put it there.

I don't disagree that the CEE is a better electrode than almost any rod or ring. If I have the opportunity to throw 20 of # 4 in while the footing is poured I certainly will if there is no rebar otherwise. Footing quite often is usually done before I get a call to do any work however.

If you put in 20' of #4 you are intentionally making an electrode.

If you have a footing with rebar in it then it is already an electrode and 250.50 says you shall use it.

If the water pipe or building steel meet respective definitions of an electrode you must also use them.

If they do not meet the definition of an electrode you are not required to make them an electrode.
Click to expand...

I agree. If the rebar 1/2" or larger and more than 20' isn't present then you don't need to install a CEE. Just like if there are no ground rods, rings or plates, you're not required to install them either.
 
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