Spliced scrap wire poll

[rodneee]

My Goss what an attitude toward the people who are your bosses...they sign your pay checks...

he said "my goss"....he meant "my gosh,"

 

[growler]

the whole point is not whether we can splice the wire as we can and it is okay to do so. the real issue is does it look professional and is it really what the customer wanted when they hired you?

My Goss what an attitude toward the people who are your bosses...they sign your pay checks...

I never think of a customer as being the boss or as hiring me. If we were to have an employer and employee relationship then I would be under their direction and this is not a good idea. I think of it as selling a service and customers as buyers rather than bosses.

When selling a product on the open market there are always top quality products for sale and products of lesser quality. When you install a range circuit are you promising the customer a circuit without splices or one that meets all codes?

Ok, you give the customer a price for a range circuit and he ask is there anyway you can drop it down another $50. To lower the price you say yes I can use a couple of pieces of left over cable and splice it. Now what's the problem? It legal, it's safe, it's cheaper and it's the customer (buyers) decision.


We are constantly being asked to cut cost some place and we have to do it in a legal way but the cost we cut can't all come from the labor side.

I'm a customer and I buy lots of scratch and dent stuff. I don't care if a washing machine has a dent or a scratch , all I want are my clothes washed and if I can get it cheaper that's just great. It's not top quality but it does work.

 

[peter d]

Now as far as the splice discussion goes on a circuit of that amperage why would you splice it in residential? that is just wrong professionally. A ciruit that size spliced with anything else except lugged splices is asking for trouble in a couple of years. lug splices means you loose money on the splice cost savings as they are expensive. You live in a community and in say 3 to 4 years the wire nuts become brittle and loosen up and they start having problems. they call some one else and they come over find the problem and sell them a new circuit with no splices. they make profit at your expense because not only is the homeowner bad mouthing you so are they and they have the pictures to prove it. Bad business decision.

Are you serious? The sad part is I think you actually are serious.

This scenario you post is absurd and ridiculous. The only reason a wire nut would fail if it was installed incorrectly. But then again, it seems every time you post, the sky is falling in some way.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Are you serious? The sad part is I think you actually are serious.

This scenario you post is absurd and ridiculous. The only reason a wire nut would fail if it was installed incorrectly. But then again, it seems every time you post, the sky is falling in some way.

He certainly has an unrealistic imagination

 

[cschmid]

LMAO while ROTF I hope I got that right..I have no delusion here and the sky is not falling I am a realist. At no point until growler commented did anyone talk about it honestly with the customer. You acted as if the customer is stupid and not your boss..that is amazing..If you build a rep as being able to negotiate a lower price then everyone will negotiate and ask you take any short cut possible to save a dollar..build it on quality and only quality; not yea I can do it this way and save you 10 dollars even thought you wasted ten dollars worth of time doing the negotiation, so total cost is 20 dollars. I am not chicken little and I am not penny wise and dollar foolish either. So feel how you like but the fact remains the splice on the range or dryer circuit is not professional in my opinion.



There is a code of standards and there is the bare minimum, barely legal way to do it. That is no difference then the code being a design manual instead of the minimum set of safety standards. So as long as you do it barely legal they will continue to increase the restrictiveness of the code. They might make it more restrictive even if you do installs above the bare minimum.

 

[peter d]

So feel how you like but the fact remains the splice on the range or dryer circuit is not professional in my opinion.

What exactly is "not professional" about it?

 

[electricmanscott]

LMAO while ROTF I hope I got that right..I have no delusion here and the sky is not falling I am a realist. At no point until growler commented did anyone talk about it honestly with the customer. You acted as if the customer is stupid and not your boss..that is amazing..If you build a rep as being able to negotiate a lower price then everyone will negotiate and ask you take any short cut possible to save a dollar..build it on quality and only quality; not yea I can do it this way and save you 10 dollars even thought you wasted ten dollars worth of time doing the negotiation, so total cost is 20 dollars. I am not chicken little and I am not penny wise and dollar foolish either. So feel how you like but the fact remains the splice on the range or dryer circuit is not professional in my opinion.



There is a code of standards and there is the bare minimum, barely legal way to do it. That is no difference then the code being a design manual instead of the minimum set of safety standards. So as long as you do it barely legal they will continue to increase the restrictiveness of the code. They might make it more restrictive even if you do installs above the bare minimum.

That's all very nice, but it is only your opinion and as such does not make it right wrong or any better than my or anybody else's.

I don't think I said the customer is stupid. What I said is they have no clue in regards to electrical work. They want to hit the switch and have the light come on or plug something in and have it work. PERIOD. What is your daily interaction with customers??

BTW, the customer is NOT my boss.

 

[PetrosA]

LMAO while ROTF I hope I got that right..I have no delusion here and the sky is not falling I am a realist. At no point until growler commented did anyone talk about it honestly with the customer. You acted as if the customer is stupid and not your boss..that is amazing..If you build a rep as being able to negotiate a lower price then everyone will negotiate and ask you take any short cut possible to save a dollar..build it on quality and only quality; not yea I can do it this way and save you 10 dollars even thought you wasted ten dollars worth of time doing the negotiation, so total cost is 20 dollars. I am not chicken little and I am not penny wise and dollar foolish either. So feel how you like but the fact remains the splice on the range or dryer circuit is not professional in my opinion.



There is a code of standards and there is the bare minimum, barely legal way to do it. That is no difference then the code being a design manual instead of the minimum set of safety standards. So as long as you do it barely legal they will continue to increase the restrictiveness of the code. They might make it more restrictive even if you do installs above the bare minimum.

The customer is not your boss, they are your client. There's a big difference. You can either explain to them the intricacies of electrical wiring or not. Either way you do it is ultimately a sales technique. If you talk to the customer and negotiate a lower price, fine. If you make splices professionally without telling the customer, fine too. If you act like your methods are uncompromising, that's also fine but realize that as soon as you mention that your way is somehow inherently safer, your technique is based on scare tactics. It's the same as selling people copper only conductors by telling them that aluminum feeders will burn out.

Your expression "barely legal" is definitely a misleading and manipulative way of selling product and service and IMHO is worse than any kind of "non-disclosure" of spliced wires.

Guys working to code minimum also has nothing to do with why the code gets more restrictive - if anything, I'd say it has more to do with cheap customers and careless users. It would be saying that AFCI breakers had to be developed and forced on us because we make such crappy splices and never tighten screws, or that we have to run grounds with our circuits because we are so sloppy that we can't keep the hot wires away from metal surfaces. A stronger argument could be made that "Code minimum" is simply the minimum design parameter that ensures user safety and as such protects both electricians and users from customers who don't want to pay for a safe installation and from hacks doing electrical work.

 

[cschmid]

Just so you know I am amused here and am not in any way trying to prove a point. I have stated my opinon and I stand by my opinon as you do yours. So what is your point? Splice away it is your reputation as electrician that the customer talks about not a splice; unless it fails..

 

[cschmid]

lets try and define Boss...

If you are an employee the boss hires you, fires you, pays you, and tells you what to do or you can work for someone else who will demand the same rights.

If you are a contractor you customer hires you, fires you, pays you, and tells you what to do or you can work for someone else who will demand the same rights.

So what is the real difference your perception?

 

[e57]

The customer is not your boss, they are your client. There's a big difference. ~

~ If you act like your methods are uncompromising, that's also fine but realize that as soon as you mention that your way is somehow inherently safer, your technique is based on scare tactics. It's the same as selling people copper only conductors by telling them that aluminum feeders will burn out.

~

I agree 100% on both above...

The client - is not an employer... While their control over the work is based on scope & payment- it is not on methods or technique. They signed (hopefully) a contract that states which codes, standards and specification (if any) apply. "The Contract - is an agreement - and an agreement is something you agree to..." They most likely agreed to a code compliant installation - and are getting that... while the quantity of J-boxes may seem unorthodox - that is in the eye of the beholder - not the code or standards that are typical to the installation....

And I'm not too keen of scare tactic sales that are based on myth - like FPE panels, K&T wiring, multi-wire circuits and the many other things that were - and still are in the code - but have been demonized by some to benefit themselves, or out of ignorance.

 

[cschmid]

Good point "scope & payment- it is not on methods or technique" I did not look at it that way.

 

[LarryFine]

lets try and define Boss...

If you are an employee the boss hires you, fires you, pays you, and tells you what to do or you can work for someone else who will demand the same rights.

If you are a contractor you customer hires you, fires you, pays you, and tells you what to do or you can work for someone else who will demand the same rights.

So what is the real difference your perception?

There's one big one: One has a more realistic understanding of the costs and headaches of being in business than the other.

 

[cschmid]

which one? :grin:

 

[satcom]

There's one big one: One has a more realistic understanding of the costs and headaches of being in business than the other.

Larry, you got that right!

 

[e57]

Good point "scope & payment- it is not on methods or technique" I did not look at it that way.

I'm glad you've come around... Now when does a guy on a 1099 become an employee? This is a trick question the IRS will ask you.

 

[Cold Fusion]

I'm only a diy (oh the horror of it) I only do my own work (okay, my dad's, my brother's, and occasionally help my buddy down the street)

There's no way I would ever put in a splice that wasn't necessary.

I mean the job would look like a cheap EC did it.:roll:

cf

 

[cschmid]

lol when he is trying to achieve a lower tax bracket.

I have not come around..I like CF even dyi do not splice a range or dryer connection..

 

[growler]

I have not come around..I like CF even dyi do not splice a range or dryer connection..

If you wouldn't splice a range or dryer circuit what circuits would you splice? How about water heater? A/C unit ( condensor), Heat pump, Hot Tub ? What about a well pump motor circuit? There are lots of circuits that could be run without splices if we would only run conduit all the way to the panel but we splice to "save money".

What exactly is supposed to make a range or dryer circuit sacrosanct?

If I go on a service call tomorrow and notice that the dryer circuit is spliced in the attic it won't bother me at all. Do you really think I would run down and tell the homeowner they have a problem with a spliced circuit in the attic when it's probably been that way for 20 years and hasn't given any problems. You see all kinds of junction boxes in houses and it really doesn't bother you unless it involves the problem that you are working on. If I see a bunch of open (flying) splices then I have a safety violation to work with that I can bring up to the homeowner and normally they don't even care about that because it's working and the house isn't on fire.

When Scott said that all homeowners care about is if things are working he was exactly right. If a juntion box has a cover it won't even attract the attention of a home inspector.

Now what would happen if a splice in a dryer or range circuit ever did go bad? A service call to repair a bad splice in a range or dryer circuit would cost about the same as a service call to repair a receptacle circuit where a back stabbed conductor had slipped out ( it may be a little easier to find, that bigger cable is easy to trace ). The world would not end.

 

[cschmid]

well lets see if I had to dig up a buried cable and splice it that is one thing to put it in new and splice it a whole new item. I never said I would cry wolf to the home owner. I said I would not install it new that way. I also see no savings in splicing a new install on any of the items you listed. except if you are taking left over wire from previous job that previous customer paid for and are trying to be cheap. But with the extra labor involve I can see no savings. I personally leave all wire that was paid for on the job on the job unless owner wants it cleaned up, then I throw it in to the recycle bin. I can see I touched a nerve here :grin: