Potential liability on a job I looked at

[nyerinfl]

I looked at a job at a small pizzeria yesterday, and what the guy wanted from me was 3 phase 30 amp power to supply a dough mixer with a cord and plug type disconnect installation at the mixer.

So there are two panels, one located right outside the room of the equipment, only has single phase power.

So I open up the panel about 15' away and check it out. Above the panel is a 3 phase disconnect for the air conditioner. I look inside the panel and see it is a single phase panel, now I'm wondering where the 3 phase is comming from. Out of the feeder conduit there are two legs about #1 in size , the neutral at the same size as these, and another wire about #3-4 in size. This wire is a 208v wild leg. This wild leg has a polaris tap type fitting on it and is tapped straight to the A/C disconnect. The other two legs on the A/C disconnect are tied right into the single phase panels main lugs.

He wants me to basically tap out of the A/C disconnect to get my 3 phase power for this dough mixer. I didn't like it but told him I'd put a number together, which I haven't done yet because I'm thinking there is a lot of wrong here to put my name on this.

I told him while I was there the panel should be changed out to a 3-phase panel and done properly, but he doesn't want to end up paying the extra cost. So I'm thinking I'm going to call him and let him know the panel needs to be changed out and done right.

What would you do in this situation?

Also is there an issue with the undersized wild leg?

 

[ceb58]

I looked at a job at a small pizzeria yesterday, and what the guy wanted from me was 3 phase 30 amp power to supply a dough mixer with a cord and plug type disconnect installation at the mixer.

So there are two panels, one located right outside the room of the equipment, only has single phase power.

So I open up the panel about 15' away and check it out. Above the panel is a 3 phase disconnect for the air conditioner. I look inside the panel and see it is a single phase panel, now I'm wondering where the 3 phase is comming from. Out of the feeder conduit there are two legs about #1 in size , the neutral at the same size as these, and another wire about #3-4 in size. This wire is a 208v wild leg. This wild leg has a polaris tap type fitting on it and is tapped straight to the A/C disconnect. The other two legs on the A/C disconnect are tied right into the single phase panels main lugs.

He wants me to basically tap out of the A/C disconnect to get my 3 phase power for this dough mixer. I didn't like it but told him I'd put a number together, which I haven't done yet because I'm thinking there is a lot of wrong here to put my name on this.

I told him while I was there the panel should be changed out to a 3-phase panel and done properly, but he doesn't want to end up paying the extra cost. So I'm thinking I'm going to call him and let him know the panel needs to be changed out and done right.

What would you do in this situation?

Also is there an issue with the undersized wild leg?

Run as fast as you can. Tell the guy that if you are not allowed to correct the problems then he can get some one else to take on the liability.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

I looked at a job at a small pizzeria yesterday, and what the guy wanted from me was 3 phase 30 amp power to supply a dough mixer with a cord and plug type disconnect installation at the mixer.

So there are two panels, one located right outside the room of the equipment, only has single phase power.

So I open up the panel about 15' away and check it out. Above the panel is a 3 phase disconnect for the air conditioner. I look inside the panel and see it is a single phase panel, now I'm wondering where the 3 phase is comming from. Out of the feeder conduit there are two legs about #1 in size , the neutral at the same size as these, and another wire about #3-4 in size. This wire is a 208v wild leg. This wild leg has a polaris tap type fitting on it and is tapped straight to the A/C disconnect. The other two legs on the A/C disconnect are tied right into the single phase panels main lugs.

He wants me to basically tap out of the A/C disconnect to get my 3 phase power for this dough mixer. I didn't like it but told him I'd put a number together, which I haven't done yet because I'm thinking there is a lot of wrong here to put my name on this.

I told him while I was there the panel should be changed out to a 3-phase panel and done properly, but he doesn't want to end up paying the extra cost. So I'm thinking I'm going to call him and let him know the panel needs to be changed out and done right.

What would you do in this situation?

Also is there an issue with the undersized wild leg?

It sounds like an old single phase system that had a delta xfmr added for a 3 phase a/c unit. It sounds like it was installed only for the a/c, so it's not big enough to tap(or maybe it is?).Check loads. Check the xfmr and see if you can furnish bigger conductors to feed a slightly bigger subpanel for a/c and mixer.

 

[nizak]

Walk away, you're money ahead to take the day off in a situation like this.You are a licensed professional, you know right and wrong. Don't think for a moment that the insurance companies lawyer who is trying the case(after the joint burns and people are killed)won't remind the jurors of this to no end. JMO.

 

[growler]

He wants me to basically tap out of the A/C disconnect to get my 3 phase power for this dough mixer.

Walk away, you're money ahead to take the day off in a situation like this.

Either walk away or just quote a price to do what you know is right and that you feel comfortable with.

My opinion is that I'm responsible for the work I do. The customer has given all the information I need from him when he says he has a mixer that needs power. It's my job to figure out how to do this in a safe, legal and profitable manner. If I can't meet all three conditions then there is no need for me to get involved.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

I would tell the owner that I wanted to invite the EI to look at the system with me to see what the AHJ's opinion might be on the minimum work that would be required to legally install the new equipment, but before I made the call I wanted to clear it with the owner.

Owner says yes, then proceed.

Owner says no, run Forest run.

 

[satcom]

I would tell the owner that I wanted to invite the EI to look at the system with me to see what the AHJ's opinion might be on the minimum work that would be required to legally install the new equipment, but before I made the call I wanted to clear it with the owner.

Owner says yes, then proceed.

Owner says no, run Forest run.

If you are a licensed professional, you already know the min work required to make a safe and efficient installation, present that along with a better then min estimate in writing, and then if they refuse, move on to customers that need your professional opinion.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

If you are a licensed professional, you already know the min work required to make a safe and efficient installation, present that along with a better then min estimate in writing, and then if they refuse, move on to customers that need your professional opinion.

Some of us aren't quite up to your level.

 

[nyerinfl]

Just to update I provided a proposal to do the work, and let him know the only way I will do the work is to replace the single phase panel with a 3-phase panel. Hopefully it works out, just more money for me, otherwise he'll find someone to rig it up cheap, we'll see.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Just to update I provided a proposal to do the work, and let him know the only way I will do the work is to replace the single phase panel with a 3-phase panel. Hopefully it works out, just more money for me, otherwise he'll find someone to rig it up cheap, we'll see.

How close was the load calculations in relation to the existing conductor size?

 

[readydave8]

Some of us aren't quite up to your level.

me too, but sometimes I think that its me holding me back, if I always stuck to my guns I could be at a higher level?

 

[RETRAINDAILY]

Either walk away or just quote a price to do what you know is right and that you feel comfortable with.
My opinion is that I'm responsible for the work I do. The customer has given all the information I need from him when he says he has a mixer that needs power. It's my job to figure out how to do this in a safe, legal and profitable manner. If I can't meet all three conditions then there is no need for me to get involved.

Thats our policy

 

[knoppdude]

I would go with Hardworking stiffs first post, and bring in the AHJ to discuss this issue with. Keeps everyone one the same page, and could give credence to your price, at least in the eyes of the customer. Good luck with this.

 

[satcom]

I would go with Hardworking stiffs first post, and bring in the AHJ to discuss this issue with. Keeps everyone one the same page, and could give credence to your price, at least in the eyes of the customer. Good luck with this.

The only problem with that is, it is not the AJH's job to tell you how ro do the job.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

The only problem with that is, it is not the AJH's job to tell you how ro do the job.

I've never met an inspector that was not willing to discuss a situation. They will not tell me how to do a job (and I'm not asking), but they will tell me what they see as concerns which maybe I don't. Then we can work things out prior to the work. I am not so arrogant as to not ask for opinions. I believe it's worth the time and money to have a discussion in this case.

 

[satcom]

I've never met an inspector that was not willing to discuss a situation. They will not tell me how to do a job (and I'm not asking), but they will tell me what they see as concerns which maybe I don't. Then we can work things out prior to the work. I am not so arrogant as to not ask for opinions. I believe it's worth the time and money to have a discussion in this case.

No inspector should refuse to discuss inspection related issues, and they are more then willing to do so, on permitted jobs, but they are not required to design or plan your proposed work, what I believe is arrogant, would be to rely on inspectors to help plan work, and it happens every day, so once you have a contract and a permit issued, it is fine to take the inspectors time to discuss issues on the job.

 

[growler]

Hopefully it works out, just more money for me, otherwise he'll find someone to rig it up cheap, we'll see.

There is a lot of potential liability if someone were to rig a job like this.

The owner may find someone that is willing to rig it for cash under the table but there are few contractors that are going to provide an invoice for a rigged job. No invoice then no business expense.

If the owner pays cash under the table then he has assumed all the liability himself. There is nothing that can be done about this.

 

[ceb58]

I've never met an inspector that was not willing to discuss a situation. They will not tell me how to do a job (and I'm not asking), but they will tell me what they see as concerns which maybe I don't. Then we can work things out prior to the work. I am not so arrogant as to not ask for opinions. I believe it's worth the time and money to have a discussion in this case.

True, I have never met one that would not discuss a situation and some times offer a simpler solution to the problem that I had not thought of.

Now on the other hand. If I were the owner of the pizza shop, knowing very little or nothing about electrical, and I called in some one to give me a price for doing something. Then they tell me there are violations that must be corrected and bring in an inspector to look at it. My first thought is I am being strong armed by the electrician. My thoughts would be. It has been working like this for years, now I need something done and this guy is telling me I need to spend a lot of money to fix it and on top of that he brings in an inspector, that could cause me trouble, to make me fix something I dont know is right or wrong.
That is bad business in my opinion. Tell them I found things that are not safe and up to code and this is the price to correct them and install the requried equipment for what they need. That's all you can do. They ether accept it or they dont.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

True, I have never met one that would not discuss a situation and some times offer a simpler solution to the problem that I had not thought of.

Now on the other hand. If I were the owner of the pizza shop, knowing very little or nothing about electrical, and I called in some one to give me a price for doing something. Then they tell me there are violations that must be corrected and bring in an inspector to look at it. My first thought is I am being strong armed by the electrician. My thoughts would be. It has been working like this for years, now I need something done and this guy is telling me I need to spend a lot of money to fix it and on top of that he brings in an inspector, that could cause me trouble, to make me fix something I dont know is right or wrong.
That is bad business in my opinion. Tell them I found things that are not safe and up to code and this is the price to correct them and install the requried equipment for what they need. That's all you can do. They ether accept it or they dont.

Very good point indeed.

 

[growler]

My thoughts would be. It has been working like this for years, now I need something done and this guy is telling me I need to spend a lot of money to fix it and on top of that he brings in an inspector, that could cause me trouble, to make me fix something I dont know is right or wrong.That is bad business in my opinion.

This job would require a permit and an inspection anyway so does it really matter when the inspectors sees it?

The fastest way out of this is just to tell the customer right off that the job will require a permit and an inspection and that will be the last you hear from most of them. They already know how many code violations they have and don't want an inspector within a mile of the place.

Either what you are planning to do is legal or it's not. If it's legal then an inspection will not be a problem.

I think this restaurant owner is looking for someone to rig this so I ask this question over the phone to save time. If they want it done safe and legal then the job is worth looking at and if they want it rigged then they need to go elsewhere. You can save a half day of wasted time by not being afraid to ask the right questions.