One Panel - Many Concerns

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tonype

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
1. I have read many threads on breaker compatibility. This Siemens panel specifically lists "Siemens" breakers only. I know Siemens is the successor company for I believe ITE and Murray(?) and that there is compatibility with these. The panel in the photo had breakers from ITE, Westinghouse, Cutler Hammer. Any comments?

2. The panel position (top of right column) labeled "Main" was occupied by a 40-amp breaker for the cooling system. The 100-amp main is actually in positions 1 and 3 (top of the left column of breakers). Is this legit? I noticed that the breakers opposing this main were signficantly warmer than the others (105 degrees vs. low 80's) - this was while there was very limited power use in the home.

3. Tandem breakers in postions not on the Siemens sticker (should only be in the bottom half), including the warm ones (positions 2 and 4) opposing the main breaker. Could this condition be contributing to the warm breakers?

4. Panel access - photo is self explanatory with repect to the laundry equipment, sump pump and support column.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/TonyPE/P1140284_edited-1.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/TonyPE/P1140289_edited-1.jpg
 
mcclary's electrical

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
tonype said:
1. I have read many threads on breaker compatibility. This Siemens panel specifically lists "Siemens" breakers only. I know Siemens is the successor company for I believe ITE and Murray(?) and that there is compatibility with these. The panel in the photo had breakers from ITE, Westinghouse, Cutler Hammer. Any comments?

2. The panel position (top of right column) labeled "Main" was occupied by a 40-amp breaker for the cooling system. The 100-amp main is actually in positions 1 and 3 (top of the left column of breakers). Is this legit? I noticed that the breakers opposing this main were signficantly warmer than the others (105 degrees vs. low 80's) - this was while there was very limited power use in the home.

3. Tandem breakers in postions not on the Siemens sticker (should only be in the bottom half), including the warm ones (positions 2 and 4) opposing the main breaker. Could this condition be contributing to the warm breakers?

4. Panel access - photo is self explanatory with repect to the laundry equipment, sump pump and support column.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/TonyPE/P1140284_edited-1.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/TonyPE/P1140289_edited-1.jpg
Click to expand...

Sweet! you get to stand in a pit of water to work on th panel!

That backfed 100 is not legal in that slot because it does not have a retaining screw hole
I believe you have some Bryant breakers in the mix too.
 
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infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
From the angle of the photo it appears that the column is not in the working space. The pit is however. Either the panel or the pit (and the other stuff) should be moved to provide the required working space. Just from the photo's it seems like there are a huge amount of problems with this installation.
 
Split Bolt

Split Bolt

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
As far as the breakers go, since this is a "new" Siemens panel, it should have all Siemens breakers. (and the backfed main must have an approved device/screw to lock it in) I believe that Murray is now just a subsidiary of Siemens, so Gould, ITE, Siemens or Murray breakers would be allowed. The rest of the breakers in the panel (including both kinds of the tandem 20s) follow this timeline: Bryant, Westinghouse, Cutler/Hammer Type BR. It's hard to keep up with all of the corporate mergers anymore! Just a matter of time before it is ALL owned by Hubbell and Philips!:grin:
 
joebell

joebell

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
It appears that this installation also has MWBC fed from the tandem breakers. That could help explain some of the heat and the discolored neutral conductors.
 
mcclary's electrical

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
joebell said:
It appears that this installation also has MWBC fed from the tandem breakers. That could help explain some of the heat and the discolored neutral conductors.
Click to expand...



I doubt that, I see 19 circuits using a grounded conductor, and I can see 18 landed. I'm sure there's probably one I cannot see



another note to the op, when the main is in the wrong slot, it's not getting the venting it should either
 
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norcal

Senior Member
The only breakers that should be in that panel is Siemens or Siemens/ITE, no Murray, Bryant/Westinghouse/Cutler-Hammer,GE or anyone else. Siemens panels use a retainer clip that fits in between the 2 poles of a breaker not screws, but is the panel older then the requirement for a retainer on a back-fed plug-in breaker? If it is the Seimens OEM retainer may not even work w/ a competitive make of breaker...


PS: The more I look at the panel the more I think it never had provisions for a retainer clip,the only way to prove/disprove it is to pull the MB,to look for provisions for the retainer to lock in place.
 
joebell

joebell

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
mcclary's electrical said:
I doubt that, I see 19 circuits using a grounded conductor, and I can see 18 landed. I'm sure there's probably one I cannot see



another note to the op, when the main is in the wrong slot, it's not getting the venting it should either
Click to expand...


I count 15 grounded conductors between sizes 10-14awg and some are certainly discolored.
 
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
iwire said:
So the red wires come from nowhere? :)

At the least the bottom left twin 15 looks like it is supplying a 14/3 from the same phase.
Click to expand...

They could be but the photo doesn't show enough to detail to know for sure.
 
Split Bolt

Split Bolt

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
Split Bolt

Split Bolt

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
I promise that after this I'll go away! Going to that Siemens link led me to something interesting that I had mentioned before on a different thread. A couple of years ago, at a small supply house, I asked for some Square D QOs and was given some Murray breakers that fit in QO panels! The guy told me that SQD let their patent run out and Murray (Siemens) started making replacement breakers and they were legal to use! Well, I didn't believe him and they are still on my van! According to this from the Siemens Speedfax catalog, they are UL approved for use in CERTAIN SQD QO panels. Anybody else out there know more on the subject?

http://cmsapps.sea.siemens.com/controls/speedfax07/07Speedfax_pdfs/07Speedfax_01/01_28.pdf
 
mcclary's electrical

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
Split Bolt said:
I promise that after this I'll go away! Going to that Siemens link led me to something interesting that I had mentioned before on a different thread. A couple of years ago, at a small supply house, I asked for some Square D QOs and was given some Murray breakers that fit in QO panels! The guy told me that SQD let their patent run out and Murray (Siemens) started making replacement breakers and they were legal to use! Well, I didn't believe him and they are still on my van! According to this from the Siemens Speedfax catalog, they are UL approved for use in CERTAIN SQD QO panels. Anybody else out there know more on the subject?

http://cmsapps.sea.siemens.com/controls/speedfax07/07Speedfax_pdfs/07Speedfax_01/01_28.pdf
Click to expand...

Cutler Hammer makes a CH-Q that fits the QO also, it's listed by CH as a replacement for QO,but they actually cost more than QO and they don't have a trip indicator, and QO specifically states in their panel every replacemnet breaker, and these are not listed, so I never use them
 
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