What is the power of an incandescent lamp at 200v 5A?

[mivey]

Correct. I didn't take account of the relatively small populations of the Scandinavian countries.
Mea culpa.
Per capita USA comes out about 5th in the league table of about 200 countries. So, a top 2.5% spot.
That's for all electrical energy consumed by country. Industrial, commercial, and residential.
The results might be a bit different with a residential only comparison.

FWIW: Native Americans were the true conservationists, modern Americans are not.

I think what you are trying to get to is that the US as a country is the biggest user of energy, but you keep stumbling over the data. You can't just look at electricity alone if you are trying to compare how "extravagant" a country might be or how much "burden" they are putting on the Earth. Let me help you out: What follows is a list of energy/capita and a list of energy/country.

IEA's 2005 energy/person in kg of oil equiv:
Qatar: 19,466
Iceland: 12,209
Bahrain: 11,180
Kuwait: 11,102
United Arab Emirates: 10,354
Luxembourg: 10,138
Trinidad and Tobago: 9,736
Netherlands Antilles: 9,057
Canada: 8,473
United States: 7,886
Norway: 7,153
Brunei Darussalam: 7,062
Singapore: 6,932
Finland: 6,555
Saudi Arabia: 6,068
Australia: 5,898
Belgium: 5,892
Sweden: 5,780
Oman: 5,440
Gibraltar: 5,432
Netherlands: 5,049
Taiwan: 4,621
Russian Federation: 4,519
Czech Rep: 4,419
Korea, Rep: 4,415
France: 4,397
New Zealand: 4,218
Germany: 4,187
Japan: 4,135
Austria: 4,135
United Kingdom: 3,895
Estonia: 3,786
Ireland: 3,656
Slovenia: 3,655
Denmark: 3,634
Switzerland: 3,599
Slovakia: 3,503
Kazakhstan: 3,462
Turkmenistan: 3,381
Cyprus: 3,367
Spain: 3,340
Libyan Arab Jamahiriya: 3,254
Italy: 3,169
Ukraine: 3,043
Israel: 2,816
Greece: 2,794
Hungary: 2,757
South Africa: 2,722
Belarus: 2,720
Hong Kong: 2,603
Bulgaria: 2,592
Portugal: 2,574
Lithuania: 2,515
Poland: 2,429
Malaysia: 2,418
Iran, Islamic Rep: 2,381
Malta: 2,349
Venezuela: 2,293
Serbia and Montenegro: 2,066
Latvia: 2,050
Croatia: 2,000
Chile: 1,815
Uzbekistan: 1,798
Romania: 1,772
Mexico: 1,701
Azerbaijan: 1,649
Argentina: 1,644
Lebanon: 1,559
Thailand: 1,557
Jamaica: 1,445
Macedonia, FYR: 1,346
China: 1,316
Jordan: 1,296
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 1,270
Gabon: 1,243
Turkey: 1,186
Brazil: 1,124
Botswana: 1,073
Iraq: 1,067
Algeria: 1,058
Korea, Dem People's Rep: 943
Syrian Arab Rep: 940
Mongolia: 916
Cuba: 905
Costa Rica: 883
Armenia: 848
Moldova, Rep: 845
Tunisia: 843
Uruguay: 836
Egypt: 828
Dominican Rep: 827
Indonesia: 814
Panama: 804
Ecuador: 789
Nigeria: 789
Albania: 767
Zimbabwe: 747
Georgia: 718
Namibia: 679
El Salvador: 673
Paraguay: 673
Nicaragua: 648
Guatemala: 634
Colombia: 627
Angola: 621
Viet Nam: 617
Zambia: 611
Bolivia: 578
Kyrgyzstan: 544
Philippines: 538
Honduras: 537
Tanzania: 532
Tajikistan: 531
Mozambique: 516
Sudan: 508
Kenya: 503
Peru: 494
India: 491
Pakistan: 490
Sri Lanka: 478
Morocco: 458
Côte d'Ivoire: 432
Cameroon: 428
Ghana: 404
Cambodia: 354
Nepal: 338
Togo: 325
Yemen: 321
Benin: 306
Ethiopia: 304
Congo: 300
Congo, Dem Rep: 295
Haiti: 293
Myanmar: 291
Senegal: 261
Eritrea: 175
Bangladesh: 171

IEA's 2006 energy/country in trillion Btu:
United States: 99,855.89
China: 73,808.15
Russia: 30,385.89
Japan: 22,785.85
India: 17,676.74
Germany: 14,629.47
Canada: 13,950.12
France: 11,444.69
United Kingdom: 9,802.08
Brazil: 9,635.47
Korea, South: 9,446.66
Italy: 8,068.89
Iran: 7,685.54
Mexico: 7,356.98
Saudi Arabia: 6,891.00
Spain: 6,510.33
Ukraine: 5,871.11
Australia: 5,610.89
South Africa: 5,176.77
Taiwan: 4,568.91
Indonesia: 4,148.93
Netherlands: 4,137.42
Turkey: 3,907.13
Poland: 3,855.72
Thailand: 3,740.62
Venezuela: 3,190.64
Argentina: 3,152.48
Kazakhstan: 2,974.92
Belgium: 2,751.45
Malaysia: 2,557.43
Egypt: 2,543.62
United Arab Emirates: 2,464.11
Pakistan: 2,297.59
Sweden: 2,215.89
Uzbekistan: 2,208.80
Singapore: 2,141.65
Norway: 1,893.94
Czech Republic: 1,807.64
Romania: 1,678.07
Algeria: 1,535.94
Austria: 1,533.74
Greece: 1,487.02
Vietnam: 1,403.83
Finland: 1,322.09
Colombia: 1,305.43
Switzerland: 1,284.10
Philippines: 1,271.26
Chile: 1,253.68
Iraq: 1,246.94
Hong Kong: 1,164.24
Hungary: 1,145.13
Belarus: 1,142.32
Kuwait: 1,136.18
Portugal: 1,084.14
Nigeria: 1,022.59
Korea, North: 948.84
Qatar: 905.98
Bulgaria: 897.09
Denmark: 879.33
Turkmenistan: 872.83
New Zealand: 863.87
Israel: 848.38
Trinidad and Tobago: 820.61
Slovakia: 812.23
Syria: 810.03
Libya: 778.92
Bangladesh: 743.36
Former Serbia and Montenegro: 740.59
Ireland: 704.36
Azerbaijan: 699.36
Peru: 612.73
Puerto Rico: 559.36
Oman: 549.93
Morocco: 507.79
Bahrain: 485.81
Paraguay: 426.06
Ecuador: 420.14
Croatia: 414.04
Cuba: 398.59
Lithuania: 347.79
Tunisia: 334.46
Slovenia: 323.46
Jordan: 308.08
Tajikistan: 280.45
Yemen: 267.26
Dominican Republic: 267.07
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 253.07
Burma (Myanmar): 236.48
Estonia: 231.99
Panama: 226.04
Sri Lanka: 218.38
Mozambique: 217.80
Bolivia: 217.53
Lebanon: 206.61
Guatemala: 202.48
Kenya: 201.55
Armenia: 201.34
Luxembourg: 201.21
Virgin Islands, U.S.: 201.07
Kyrgyzstan: 198.52
Sudan: 184.71
Zimbabwe: 183.44
Latvia: 181.90
Costa Rica: 177.64
Brunei: 177.34
Iceland: 170.24
Angola: 164.79
Jamaica: 163.68
Ghana: 158.68
Netherlands Antilles: 154.22
Moldova: 146.79
Georgia: 135.77
Uruguay: 133.74
El Salvador: 131.37
Honduras: 126.68
Zambia: 125.56
Albania: 122.90
Cyprus: 121.30
Cote d'Ivoire (IvoryCoast): 113.48
Macedonia: 113.09
Ethiopia: 102.55
Congo (Kinshasa): 97.23
Mongolia: 95.88
Cameroon: 88.17
Senegal: 83.60
Tanzania: 79.79
Papua New Guinea: 72.34
Nicaragua: 71.35
Nepal: 68.28
Bahamas, The: 67.02
Namibia: 59.97
Botswana: 59.18
Gibraltar: 57.69
Mauritius: 55.48
Equatorial Guinea: 50.17
Mauritania: 47.00
Reunion: 45.23
Madagascar: 42.42
Suriname: 41.71
Malta: 41.63
Gabon: 41.41
Benin: 38.92
Togo: 36.96
New Caledonia: 35.76
Uganda: 34.94
Macau: 34.81
Martinique: 33.02
Guadeloupe: 30.17
Congo (Brazzaville): 28.20
Haiti: 27.68
Djibouti: 26.74
Fiji: 25.42
Guam: 25.31
Malawi: 25.19
Bhutan: 23.56
Guinea: 23.28
Laos: 23.15
Guyana: 22.54
Barbados: 21.13
Wake Island: 19.31
Burkina Faso: 18.54
Afghanistan: 18.37
Sierra Leone: 17.12
Swaziland: 17.00
Niger: 16.75
Belize: 16.14
French Guiana: 15.08
Aruba: 14.99
French Polynesia: 14.02
Mali: 13.42
Rwanda: 13.41
Seychelles: 12.69
Faroe Islands: 10.82
Eritrea: 10.65
Somalia: 10.40
Maldives: 9.93
Cambodia: 9.71
Bermuda: 9.48
Antigua and Barbuda: 9.33
American Samoa: 8.51
Greenland: 8.42
Liberia: 7.56
Burundi: 6.57
Cayman Islands: 5.95
Guinea-Bissau: 5.46
Saint Lucia: 5.42
Central African Republic: 5.38
Lesotho: 5.22
Gambia, The: 4.35
U.S. Pacific Islands: 4.34
Western Sahara: 4.20
Grenada: 3.97
Cape Verde: 3.77
Antarctica: 3.51
Saint Vincent/Grenadines: 3.24
Chad: 3.04
Solomon Islands: 2.97
Samoa: 2.74
Nauru: 2.37
Tonga: 2.21
Saint Kitts and Nevis: 1.93
Dominica: 1.70
Comoros: 1.59
Sao Tome and Principe: 1.49
Vanuatu: 1.48
Virgin Islands, British: 1.37
Saint Pierre and Miquelon: 1.18
Montserrat: 1.01
Cook Islands: 0.99
Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas): 0.55
Kiribati: 0.54
Turks and Caicos Islands: 0.19
Saint Helena: 0.18
Niue: 0.06

 

[Besoeker]

You can't just look at electricity alone

I can. And I did.
Larry's point was about electrical energy.
This is an electrical forum.

 

[mivey]

This is an electrical forum.

Thanks for the tip. :grin:

 

[mivey]

I can. And I did.

But shouldn't.

Larry's point was about electrical energy.

But your's was not limited to an electrical-only discussion based on your post here:

USA uses more energy per capita than any other country. The economy has supported a lifestyle that others envy.

Even with electric only, your post is still incorrect. Here is some electrical-only data, for what it is worth:

kWh/yr per person:
Iceland: 27,633.90
Norway: 24,653.68
Finland: 16,816.54
Canada: 16,612.56
Qatar: 15,399.75
Sweden: 14,832.43
Luxembourg: 13,580.65
Kuwait: 13,502.05
United States: 12,986.01
United Arab Emirates: 11,703.74
Australia: 10,905.48
Bahrain: 10,473.18
Guam (US): 9,805.88
Taiwan (Republic of China): 9,653.02
New Zealand: 9,282.52
Liechtenstein: 9,095.43
Bermuda (UK): 8,981.25
Singapore: 8,303.28
United States Virgin Islands (US): 8,271.43
Cayman Islands (UK): 8,266.67
South Korea: 8,075.98
Switzerland: 8,033.65
Belgium: 7,965.26
Japan: 7,862.49
Saint Pierre and Miquelon (France): 7,750.00
France: 7,392.77
Austria: 7,357.43
Aruba (Netherlands): 7,233.33
Brunei: 7,018.72
Slovenia: 6,970.01
Germany: 6,647.97
Netherlands: 6,638.44
Israel: 6,435.69
European Union: 6,422.25
Denmark: 6,264.04
Saudi Arabia: 5,978.11
Russia: 5,921.20
New Caledonia (France): 5,919.83
Czech Republic: 5,843.44
Ireland: 5,807.62
Puerto Rico (US): 5,802.50
United Kingdom: 5,795.37
Faroe Islands (Denmark): 5,738.30
Hong Kong: 5,723.62
Spain: 5,642.76
Bahamas: 5,455.11
Trinidad and Tobago: 5,427.59
Italy: 5,286.35
Estonia: 5,178.95
Kazakhstan: 5,155.48
Macau (PRC): 5,152.17
South Africa: 5,089.39
Gibraltar (UK): 5,035.71
Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas) (UK): 4,960.00
Cyprus: 4,952.10
Greenland (Denmark): 4,894.74
Greece: 4,883.99
Malta: 4,873.13
Netherlands Antilles (Netherlands): 4,868.85
Bulgaria: 4,840.80
Montserrat (UK): 4,650.00
Portugal: 4,626.01
Slovakia: 4,615.81
Republic of Macedonia: 4,253.20
Jersey (UK): 4,228.86
Ukraine: 3,913.43
Hungary: 3,563.08
Serbia: 3,379.69
Oman: 3,373.98
Croatia: 3,289.39
Barbados: 3,282.59
Azerbaijan: 3,269.53
Suriname: 3,169.27
Poland: 3,124.84
Libya: 3,106.10
Malaysia: 3,105.69
Belarus: 3,023.07
Chile: 2,964.71
Lebanon: 2,957.79
Niue (NZ): 2,790.00
China: 2,774.34
Tajikistan: 2,750.88
Venezuela: 2,742.53
Lithuania: 2,709.41
Saint Kitts and Nevis: 2,704.65
Romania: 2,694.03
Seychelles: 2,674.07
Latvia: 2,639.79
American Samoa (US): 2,575.38
Jamaica: 2,312.71
Argentina: 2,296.44
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 2,194.52
Brazil: 2,162.11
Kosovo: 2,038.57
Uruguay: 2,030.03
Nauru: 1,992.86
Iran: 1,959.29
British Virgin Islands (UK): 1,902.27
Thailand: 1,832.39
Georgia: 1,820.74
Armenia: 1,808.36
Costa Rica: 1,797.09
Syria: 1,785.43
Uzbekistan: 1,767.38
Turkey: 1,762.46
Saint Lucia: 1,757.14
Mexico: 1,712.62
French Polynesia (France): 1,671.98
Mauritius: 1,661.04
Federated States of Micronesia: 1,623.64
Turkmenistan: 1,572.94
Kyrgyzstan: 1,558.89
Cook Islands (NZ): 1,550.00
Jordan: 1,488.69
Saint Helena (UK): 1,488.00
Botswana: 1,474.22
Panama: 1,465.04
Namibia: 1,409.65
Grenada: 1,354.37
Moldova: 1,319.78
Iraq: 1,244.14
Cuba: 1,230.81
Antigua and Barbuda: 1,205.56
Swaziland: 1,162.79
Egypt: 1,141.25
Mongolia: 1,111.11
Tunisia: 1,105.72
Albania: 1,061.66
Guyana: 999.60
Dominican Republic: 988.31
Paraguay: 974.34
Zimbabwe: 943.12
Dominica: 941.77
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines: 899.16
Gabon: 896.68
Fiji: 867.45
Colombia: 853.29
Algeria: 837.65
North Korea: 825.77
Peru: 807.71
El Salvador: 773.00
Mayotte (France): 746.57
Zambia: 741.77
Ecuador: 669.41
Morocco: 656.65
Vietnam: 609.58
Belize: 602.96
Papua New Guinea: 584.17
Philippines: 564.21
Honduras: 560.17
Nicaragua: 533.81
Samoa: 527.84
India: 514.79
Guatemala: 504.88
Indonesia: 484.78
Maldives: 477.51
Mozambique: 461.15
Tonga: 460.78
Pakistan: 424.61
Turks and Caicos Islands (UK): 413.85
Bolivia: 368.66
Sri Lanka: 340.93
Ghana: 312.30
Tuvalu: 300.00
Djibouti: 286.13
Western Sahara: 231.82
Cameroon: 210.45
Laos: 201.38
Lesotho: 188.58
Vanuatu: 180.71
Bhutan: 175.68
Yemen: 161.19
C?te d'Ivoire: 159.74
Senegal: 159.46
Republic of the Congo: 143.04
Angola: 138.07
Bangladesh: 137.43
Kenya: 130.31
Nigeria: 128.34
Solomon Islands: 116.74
S?o Tom? and Pr?ncipe: 106.62
Malawi: 100.82
Togo: 93.73
Democratic Republic of the Congo: 91.61
Sudan: 91.02
Liberia: 90.44
The Gambia: 88.93
Guinea: 88.59
Kiribati: 84.55
Cape Verde: 82.54
Mauritania: 75.14
Burma: 74.11
Nepal: 72.24
Benin: 69.56
Mali: 59.48
Uganda: 58.09
Madagascar: 52.31
Eritrea: 51.81
Equatorial Guinea: 51.67
Sierra Leone: 41.25
Haiti: 37.76
Burkina Faso: 36.29
Guinea-Bissau: 35.18
Ethiopia: 33.28
Niger: 31.36
Tanzania: 31.28
Somalia: 30.52
Montenegro: 29.99
Afghanistan: 26.84
Central African Republic: 25.11
Comoros: 23.31
Rwanda: 21.95
Burundi: 21.38
Cambodia: 14.68
Chad: 9.06
Gaza Strip: 0.16

 

[Besoeker]

But shouldn't.
But your's was not limited to an electrical-only discussion based on your post here:
Even with electric only, your post is still incorrect. Here is some electrical-only data, for what it is worth:

Population of Iceland is 308,910.
Electricity consumption is 16.48 billion kWh
Do the arithmetic.

 

[mivey]

Population of Iceland is 308,910.
Electricity consumption is 16.48 billion kWh
Do the arithmetic.

Can I use a slide rule? Maybe their usage has skyrocketed. The CIA factbook says their number is an estimate.

Also, from the Iceland Trade Director (published by the Trade Council of Iceland and the Federation of Icelandic Trade):

Although electricity consumption per capita in Iceland is second to none in the world, at about 28,200 kWh per person, only a fraction of the country?s energy potential has been tapped. Total economically viable electric power potential is now estimated at 50,000 GWh/year. About 8,490 GWh/year of this power had been harnessed in 2003, i.e. only about 17% of the total electrical energy potential.

They certainly have a steep increasing trend that may explain the 16.5 billion estimate:

Iceland Historic electricity consumption in billions of kWh:
1988: 4.03
1989: 4.10
1990: 4.06
1991: 4.05
1992: 4.15
1993: 4.36
1994: 4.48
1995: 4.59
1996: 4.60
1997: 5.07
1998: 5.75
1999: 6.69
2000: 7.24
2001: 7.54
2002: 7.88
2003: 7.87
2004: 8.10
2005: 8.15
2006: 9.31
2007: 11.22

 

[Besoeker]

They certainly have a steep increasing trend that may explain the 16.5 billion estimate:

Could be:

 

[glene77is]

100809-0728 EST

glene77is:

Somewhere I may have a hot wire ammeter good to maybe 30 mHz.
Back in the 50s I believe Ballatine made an RMS voltmeter using log amplifiers that was at least good thru the audio range.

.

Gar,
Thanks.

The hot-wire ammeter is one I've never seen, only read about.

Sharing with you,
In school, I made an RMS voltmeter, 1979, based on an assortment of opAmps in log configuration, incorporating an exponential amp control in a feedback loop (a single transister), which worked up through 10KHz. It is sitting up on a shelf beside me. All the switch contacts for the circuit boards are corroded now (switches were not the best idea). Looking at it now, I see I used switches to interconnect a Bipolar Active Diode board, Peak Amp board, RMS board, in different sequences (sounds like a student project, eh?), looking for 1 percent accuracy in a 'final' lab project. I had switches on the timing circuits, gain (.1V, 1V, etc) and stable log reference. Have to review my 'engineering' notebook (in my hand now) to refresh my memory as to equations, exact circuits, etc.

One thing I spent too much time on was the Weston analog meter, which I eventually adjusted to plus/minus .5 percent.
Beautiful meter to look at. It was the display on this project.

I used to dream about designing / building all my own instruments.
We did some of that at the university, out of necessity, and they were exotic, very specific.

Anyway, my school project would NOT have been as healthy
as your Ballatine instrument.

When the first digital VOMs came out, I was disappointed that the rise/fall slope times were something like one second, leading to great 'analog' inaccuracies. I still use a clamp-on with an analog meter display because of the quick following ability of the display. For stable circuits, I use a digital.

For circuit tracing I really like the AT4001 (32KHz) tracer.
I picked up one from Addison Electric (Licensed Electrician Com) and am amazed at how useful it can be.

The voltage/mag device (something like a non-contact 'ticker') from Greenlee ($35)
is interesting as a 'relative' indicator, especially the magnetic pickup, but overly sensitive to humidity.

I take some ribbing when I pull out a light-bulb in festoon socket
for checking circuits.

Gar, Thank you for the response.

 

[gar]

100812-1426 EST

glenn66:

Here is probably a modern ad for a Ballatine true RMS meter.
http://www.ballantinelabs.com/323meter.htm

At EDG of the U of M in the early 50s we were in the countermeasures business. This meant such things as signal detectability and working with white noise. If you know the noise distribution is Gaussian then multiplying by a correction constant it is possible to use an average reading meter calibrated to RMS of a sine wave to get RMS of the noise waveform. Easier to use a meter that directly reads true RMS.

At Ford Engineering in the mid 40s they had an AC voltmeter with a log scale. I don't know if this was a Ballatine. Unlikely it was true RMS. This was used by the sound lab people. They also had a frequency tuned level recorder for running acoustic tests on different sound deadening materials on car bodies.

Instrumentation has advanced a great deal since then.

.

 

[Electric-Light]

Most of so called "true RMS" meters are not completely truly RMS. They're AC coupled and will ignore DC component. Even the Fluke 87 is not true RMS responding.

If you feed it a bumpy DC with line frequency modulation and a Vmax of 120v and Vmin of 80v, it will only register the AC component.

 

[glene77is]

Gar,

correction:

The voltage/mag device (something like a non-contact 'ticker')

from >>> ExTech <<< at ($35)

is interesting as a 'relative' indicator,
especially the magnetic pickup,
but overly sensitive to humidity.

 

[LarryFine]

Most of so called "true RMS" meters are not completely truly RMS. They're AC coupled and will ignore DC component. Even the Fluke 87 is not true RMS responding.

From what I understand, moving-coil (D'Arsonval) meters are inherently RMS responding.

 

[davidaengelhart]

Answer the question with what is given; do no add or subtract from it. You may leave the extraineous material out, but there is not much material to begin with. I believe Mike H would agree.

 

[Besoeker]

From what I understand, moving-coil (D'Arsonval) meters are inherently RMS responding.

For analogue indication we'd use moving coil for DC and moving iron for AC.

 

[gar]

100813-1406 EST

Electric-Light makes a good point.

For illustration purposes consider a square wave because it is easy to calculate its RMS value.

First, consider a sq-wave symmetrical about the 0 axis. Use a 1 ohm load and a 2 V peak to peak waveform. The average power dissipation is (0.5 * 1^2 / 1) + (0.5 *1^2 / 1) = 1 W and therefore the RMS voltage is 1 V. The two terms are the result of the two half cycles. Simple observation without the calculation tells you the result is 1 V.

Second, displace the waveform so it swings from 0 to 2 V. Now the average power dissipation is (0.5 * 2^2 / 1) + (0.5 * 0 / 1) = 4/2 = 2 W. The RMS voltage is 1.414 V.

With the Fluke 87 both waveforms would read 1 V because it strips the DC component.

With a Fluke 27 both readings should be about 1 * 0.707/0.636 = 1.112 V.

Now consider what happens with a Simpson 270 in the AC position. This meter is a full wave rectifier to DC with no peak filtering and averaging of the resultant. There is no series capacitor in the AC position. On a sine wave the average value of full wave rectification is 0.636 times the peak voltage of the sine wave. But the Simpson is calibrated to read the RMS value of a sine wave. Effectively the average value has been multiplied by 0.707/0.636 = 1.112 . In the AC position there is no stripping of the DC component. Thus, with 8.995 VDC applied the Simpson should read 10.0 V on the AC position.

If an 8.995 V peak to peak square wave balanced about 0 is applied to the Simpson on the 10 V AC range, then the Simpson should read 5.0 V.

The following experiment was performed as follows: An adjustable square wave generator of 600 Hz was connected in series with an adjustable DC supply. The Simpson was in the AC position on the 10 V scale, and measured the sum of the two. The function generator produces a rather balanced square wave. With zero V DC from the power supply the function generator output was adjusted so the meter read 5 V. The theoretical peak to peak is 8.995 as calculated above. Next the DC voltage was adjusted, and the results were:
..DC...........Simpson
0.000 ....... 5.0
4.498 ....... 5.0 ..... theoretical
4.590 ....... 5.1
4.718 ....... 5.2
4.924 ....... 5.4
4.994 ....... 5.5
5.460 ....... 6.0
7.328 ....... 8.0
9.190 ....... 10.0
8.995 ....... 10.0 .... theoretical
0.000........ 10.0 ..... 10.25 on Fluke 27
The difference between the Fluke and the Simpson if used to correct the Simpson 10.0 V reading makes the theoretical and measured values fairly close for the DC component.

It would be useful if you can understand what happens in the Simpson case. Draw intermediate waveforms and calculate the average values.

The important point of these comments is that you need to understand the characteristics of your waveform and how your measuring instrument responds to the waveform relative to the information you desired from the measurement.

For measurements where I do not really need to know the RMS value accurately and the waveform is close to a sine wave, then I prefer the Fluke 27 over the 87. With the 27 I have less, virtually none, noise on the AC MV range with the input shorted.

.

 

[gar]

100813-1407 EST

Larry:

From what I understand, moving-coil (D'Arsonval) meters are inherently RMS responding.

No. A Weston-D'Arsonval meter movement is a DC instrument. It has a permanent magnet field, usually uniform, and a spring restrained moving coil with a pointer. On DC it reads the RMS value. On AC of a frequency above the response time of the meter it reads 0.

This type of meter is used in the Simpson 260 and is combined with a full wave bridge rectifier for AC measurements. But here it measures the average value of the full wave rectified waveform. Then scale calibration makes it read the RMS value for a sine wave.

Electrodynamometer meter movements use use both a moving and fixed coil in series and thus are a multiplier and in combination with mechanical averaging and a non-linear scale become a true RMS meter within a restricted frequency range.

.

 

[glene77is]

You forgot to bring over this piece of the truth from the other forum as well:http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/pf-correction-devices-again-12961/index5/#post263634 :grin:

Mivey,

Pavg <= 1kW ???

Is there such a thing as Power Average ?
Should that be something like KWhr related to five hours ?

This is my comment for you :
If the bulbs filament has resistance ranging over a factor or 10,
and this ramps up in, say 1/20 second,
and we were given that the Frequency of the supplied 'AC' voltage were .1 Hz,
then might we have a power factor of .2 ?

Just ball-parking figures for a hypothetical question
just to see if it flies anywhere at all.
If it does, then I might go further in specifying real figures.

The point is that
(1) the frequency of the applied voltage is important,
(2) given that there is a dynamic resistance involved with the filament.

Comments:

 

[glene77is]

From what I understand, moving-coil (D'Arsonval) meters are inherently RMS responding.

My understanding, too.
Magnetic responding.
Never explored that. I only have one, acquired a few years ago.
It is a Triplett 660 AD/DC double meter WattMeter.
As I have started to reverse engineer it, I notice that one of the meters is d'Arsonval.
There is an added circuit modification which has me stumped for the moment.

 

[glene77is]

100813-1407 EST
Larry:
(1) No. A Weston-D'Arsonval meter movement is a DC instrument. It has a permanent magnet field, usually uniform, and a spring restrained moving coil with a pointer. On DC it reads the RMS value. On AC of a frequency above the response time of the meter it reads 0.
(2) This type of meter is used in the Simpson 260 and is combined with a full wave bridge rectifier for AC measurements. But here it measures the average value of the full wave rectified waveform. Then scale calibration makes it read the RMS value for a sine wave.
(3) Electrodynamometer meter movements use use both a moving and fixed coil in series and thus are a multiplier and in combination with mechanical averaging and a non-linear scale become a true RMS meter within a restricted frequency range.
.

Gar,

It reads like you are both going down the same road,
you are going further.

I will take your info and examine this Triplett 660 Wattmeter.
I think you have been a great help to me.
No frequency range is stated on the meter,
but since it has a 0-150 V scale I am thinking that it is for a 50-60 Hz range.
The Watts meter reads 0-500 W and 0-1000 W.

 

[glene77is]

100813-1407 EST
.

Gar,
This little comment has to do with the nature of the RMS concept,
how it is measured, and may indicate that the OP's initial message was Far Too Simple,
constituting a logical fallacy called the "Complex Question",
which imposes a forced "Non Sequitar" on any respondents.

On my instrument, Here is what I see:
(Wait a sec, have to remove my glasses and get the magnifiers on).

For d'Arsonval movement, there is source power applied to two field coils,
one field coil on each side of the rotating movement, maybe #16 enameled copper,
wound from the inside to the outside, apparently in layers, not scrambled.
Looking from a 'West' position to the meter,
the field coils are fed opposite from each other:
Source 'A' feeds coil (1) on the outside, counterclockwise, inward.
Source 'A' feeds coil (1) on the inside, same direction, outward.
It is as if they are bucking each other.
This is from the same 'West' perspective.

The rotating movement has a finely wound coil, layered, not scramblee,
spring loaded towards 60 degrees at zero indication,
sitting at 90 degrees to the field coil when the indicator is midscale,
sitting at 120 degrees to the field coil when the indicator is fullscale.

The power 'positive' line
(1) enters the instrument box,
(2) goes directly to the d'A movement,
(3) passes through these two field (stationary) coils,
(4) passes to a receptical for a device load,
(5) passes directly back out to the power 'negative' line.
That is it. Don't see any diodes, no selenium plates, nothing else.
The d'A movement moves in response to these field coils.

There are two taps taken from the voltage side ('East')
which run through the d'A movement coil, producing flux,
interacting with the field coils, producing a movement.

The label reads "AC-DC", OK?

I hope I am not far off the subject,
or I may get bumped.
Gee, this is fun!