Service Panelboard Question

[George Stolz]

Suppose you have an outdoor panelboard beside a meter socket on a wall. The service conductors route through the meter, and then into the panel. A few NM cables enter the back of the panel and the conductors within these cables must pass over the service conductors inside the panel.

Legal or illegal?

 

[SEO]

If the conductors have insulation that is rated for the voltage whats the problem?

 

[George Stolz]

According to the guy who started the argument, there is a code that forbids fused and unfused conductors from crossing paths inside a panel.

I disagree.

Edit to add: He said he was failed for it by a well known (intelligent) inspector. I am unaware of the timeline of that failure.

 

[roger]

I say it's legal, fused and unfused cables are only prohibited in raceways and a panel can is not a raceway.

Roger

 

[jumper]

George, why does this question seem familiar?

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=1244935&postcount=20

 

[SEO]

According to the guy who started the argument, there is a code that forbids fused and unfused conductors from crossing paths inside a panel.

I disagree.

Edit to add: He said he was failed for it by a well known (intelligent) inspector. I am unaware of the timeline of that failure.

What code reference did he cite? Almost every panel installed with a main breaker is going to have unfused and fused conductors in contact with one another.

 

[shepelec]

George, why does this question seem familiar?

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=1244935&postcount=20

Not the same scenario, do we really need to start this again?

 

[George Stolz]

I realize that this question has come up in different variations recently, and I apologize for belaboring the point. It just came up for me at work today, and I wanted something more to offer the other guy to clarify the issue (specific to our argument), beyond "George says."

Thanks,

 

[augie47]

I agree with Roger (post #4)

 

[jetlag]

I say it's legal, fused and unfused cables are only prohibited in raceways and a panel can is not a raceway.

Roger

I install a lot of GE 8 space 200a outside disconnects. They can be used for over head or underground service. For underground service the knock out on the bottom left is used , and there is a metal channel all the way to the main breaker at the top of the box to keep the unfused service conductors away from the area on the load side of the main. Why do they do that if it is okay for all to be in the same enclosure?

 

[infinity]

Edit to add: He said he was failed for it by a well known (intelligent) inspector.

Even intelligent inspectors make mistakes. Obviously this one did. See Roger's post #4.

 

[hurk27]

I realize that this question has come up in different variations recently, and I apologize for belaboring the point. It just came up for me at work today, and I wanted something more to offer the other guy to clarify the issue (specific to our argument), beyond "George says."

Thanks,

Tell them to quite watching Holmes on Home's, Canada can keep that requirement

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Tell them to quite watching Holmes on Home's, Canada can keep that requirement

I was thinking the same thing. In Canada, there is a barrier in the service panel, with the service conductors on one side of the barrier and all the other 'girls' on the other side...

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I have never even gave it a thought. I never been taged for it and don't see it as a violation. I can see where it could be a problem if the wires over heated and melted into the unfused conductors. Unless they have a code number to back it up i say you win.

 

[hurk27]

I have never even gave it a thought. I never been taged for it and don't see it as a violation. I can see where it could be a problem if the wires over heated and melted into the unfused conductors. Unless they have a code number to back it up i say you win.

I think this would be a little different than branch circuit or a feeder.

If branch circuits or feeders were run in the same raceway and for some reason made contact with the ungrounded service conductor, the neutral of the branch circuit or feeder would be subject to very high current, and almost immediately burn up, if these conductors ran into the house where they could ignite something there would be a fire.

In a service panel they would be at their source point, meaning that if the same thing happened the only part of the conductor that would burn would be contained within the panel between the service conductor and neutral bar.

At least thats the way I see it.

 

[George Stolz]

I install a lot of GE 8 space 200a outside disconnects. They can be used for over head or underground service. For underground service the knock out on the bottom left is used , and there is a metal channel all the way to the main breaker at the top of the box to keep the unfused service conductors away from the area on the load side of the main. Why do they do that if it is okay for all to be in the same enclosure?

Is there a meter at the top of the enclosure? Then I'd say it is to prevent tampering and theft.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I was thinking the same thing. In Canada, there is a barrier in the service panel, with the service conductors on one side of the barrier and all the other 'girls' on the other side...

And that is a rule we need here as there is no legal way to work in a panel that contains the service disconnect. Other than troubleshooting, the OSHA and 70E rules prohibit work in an energized panel. If the panel contains the service disconnect the only way to work in it and comply with the rules would be to have the utility disconnect the service. That is not likely to happen so we are forcing electricians to violate the safety rules.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

I say it's legal, fused and unfused cables are only prohibited in raceways and a panel can is not a raceway.

Roger

This statement makes the most sense to me, unless Mr. Fine chimes in....

 

[macmikeman]

This type doesn't really answer George's question, but it solves it in case there is a problem in the practice

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

And that is a rule we need here as there is no legal way to work in a panel that contains the service disconnect. Other than troubleshooting, the OSHA and 70E rules prohibit work in an energized panel. If the panel contains the service disconnect the only way to work in it and comply with the rules would be to have the utility disconnect the service. That is not likely to happen so we are forcing electricians to violate the safety rules.

I completely agree with this statement.