Service Panelboard Question

[MBCampbell]

I thought 70E only prohibited the working on energized parts while not wearing the proper PPE.

Why would the NEC have a section for equipment likely to be serviced while energized?

 

[enteng14]

Suppose you have an outdoor panelboard beside a meter socket on a wall. The service conductors route through the meter, and then into the panel. A few NM cables enter the back of the panel and the conductors within these cables must pass over the service conductors inside the panel.

Legal or illegal?

Is the NM cables connected to the circuit breaker or just pass through the service panel?

If the NM cables part of the feeder conductors that terminated at the circuit breaker at the service panel, then it is legal.

If NM cable only pass through the service panel, then can we use the reason of NEC 230.7?, where conductors other than service conductors are prohibited in the same service raceway. According to the NEC handbook (2005), "All feeder and branch-circuit conductors must be separated from service conductors. Service conductors are not provided with overcurrent protection where they receive their supply; they are protected against overload conditions at their load end by the service disconnect fuses or circuit breakers."

Although on your part it is not a raceway but a service panel but would rationale of NEC 230.7 still be applicable if the NM cables only pass through?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I thought 70E only prohibited the working on energized parts while not wearing the proper PPE.

Removing the cover is working on near energized parts and is, in general, prohibited by the rules in 70E.

Why would the NEC have a section for equipment likely to be serviced while energized?

To provide a safe workspace for troubleshooting...about the only "on or near" work that is permitted by the safety rules.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I completely agree with this statement.

I wish you were on CMP 9. No one there agrees.

 

[iwire]

I wish you were on CMP 9. No one there agrees.

Which is absolutely ridiculous.

We now have a code rule that requires handle ties on MWBCs, but we cannot have a code rule that protects workers from unfused service conductors.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Which is absolutely ridiculous.

We now have a code rule that requires handle ties on MWBCs, but we cannot have a code rule that protects workers from unfused service conductors.

There are Standards, but as of now Standards are not enforceable unless adopted, and many jurisdictions have not adopted them.



The absolute best way I see in moving forward on the safety topic is via insurance companies.....

 

[fishin' electrician]

Enclosed service conductors in panel....

Enclosed service conductors in panel....

Seems like the way things have been going, if we want this in the code, we'll need to get the manufacturers on board.

And they wouldn't even have to design it until it's required by code.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Seems like the way things have been going, if we want this in the code, we'll need to get the manufacturers on board.

And they wouldn't even have to design it until it's required by code.

Go easy there fishin....the truth could hurt.

 

[jetlag]

Is there a meter at the top of the enclosure? Then I'd say it is to prevent tampering and theft.

I install so many different brands of disco's it is hard to remember, but I do believe that is the one with the built in meter socket. And I see how that is different from conductors that have passed thru the meter, Im not sure about the theft part because the metal barrier is easily removed from the panel with the cover open . The meter is in a seperate compartment that the poco seals . Maybe there is a code against service conductors ahead of the meter being in contact with the fused conductors . It seems that is what the barrier is intended for.

 

[jetlag]

And that is a rule we need here as there is no legal way to work in a panel that contains the service disconnect. Other than troubleshooting, the OSHA and 70E rules prohibit work in an energized panel. If the panel contains the service disconnect the only way to work in it and comply with the rules would be to have the utility disconnect the service. That is not likely to happen so we are forcing electricians to violate the safety rules.

We put the "HOT" girls on the breakers and the "COLD" ones get packed to the side on the ground and neutral bar :grin::grin:

 

[jetlag]

I was thinking the same thing. In Canada, there is a barrier in the service panel, with the service conductors on one side of the barrier and all the other 'girls' on the other side...

Sorry in my previous hot girl post , this is the post I meant to quote , it was a quote in the post I quoted , confused yet ?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I think this would be a little different than branch circuit or a feeder.

If branch circuits or feeders were run in the same raceway and for some reason made contact with the ungrounded service conductor, the neutral of the branch circuit or feeder would be subject to very high current, and almost immediately burn up, if these conductors ran into the house where they could ignite something there would be a fire.

In a service panel they would be at their source point, meaning that if the same thing happened the only part of the conductor that would burn would be contained within the panel between the service conductor and neutral bar.

At least thats the way I see it.

What i am looking at is if for some unlikely reason that lets say a #14 or #12 ungrounded wire on same phase melted together. That then would leave us with an unfuse circuit and could be hazard. Never in my 30 years of wiring have i ever seen it happen.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I say it's legal, fused and unfused cables are only prohibited in raceways and a panel can is not a raceway.

Roger

Go to definitions and check out RACEWAYS. Till i read it i agreed with you now I can't.

 

[jetlag]

Go to definitions and check out RACEWAYS. Till i read it i agreed with you now I can't.

There must be something in the code or poco rules that the service conductors ahead of the meter can not be in contact with the fused conductors . There is allways a metal barrier in a combo disco-meter to isolate the conductors ahead of the meter.

 

[George Stolz]

I install so many different brands of disco's it is hard to remember, but I do believe that is the one with the built in meter socket. And I see how that is different from conductors that have passed thru the meter, Im not sure about the theft part because the metal barrier is easily removed from the panel with the cover open . The meter is in a seperate compartment that the poco seals . Maybe there is a code against service conductors ahead of the meter being in contact with the fused conductors . It seems that is what the barrier is intended for.

Generally, the little trough on the side for an over/under metermain is also sealed by the POCO using the same flimsy seal they use to prevent tampering inside the meter enclosure.

 

[roger]

Go to definitions and check out RACEWAYS. Till i read it i agreed with you now I can't.

Please point out exactly what part of the definition refers to Cabinets, Cutout Boxes or Meter Socket Enclosures.

Roger

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Please point out exactly what part of the definition refers to Cabinets, Cutout Boxes or Meter Socket Enclosures.

Roger

an ENCLOSED CHANNEL OF METAL --------BUSBARS,WITH ADDITIONAL FUNCTIONS---
designed EXPRESSLY FOR HOLDING WIRES -----
RACEWAYS INCLUDE,BUT ARE NOT LIMITED TO ------


My point is it includes far more than just pipe. Does a panel not hold wires and busbars ?
We have often seen where wires go thru a panel.
Wording is often very gray in NEC. I do not believe they would have wrote such a long statement to just include boxes and pipes.

 

[roger]

My point is it includes far more than just pipe. Does a panel not hold wires and busbars ?

A panel enclosure (Cabinet or Cutout Box) holds wire and busbars and has a specific definition not included in RACEWAYS.

Cabinet. An enclosure that is designed for either surface mounting or flush mounting and is provided with a frame, mat, or trim in which a swinging door or doors are or can be hung.

NECH Commentary

Both cabinets and cutout boxes are covered in Article 312. Cabinets are designed for surface or flush mounting with a trim to which a swinging door(s) is hung. Cutout boxes are designed for surface mounting with a swinging door(s) secured directly to the box. Panelboards are electrical assemblies designed to be placed in a cabinet or cutout box. (See the definitions of cutout box and panelboard.)

We have often seen where wires go thru a panel.

Sure we have and we have also seen unbroken wires pass through wiring devices, does that make them raceways?

I do not believe they would have wrote such a long statement to just include boxes and pipes.

Sure they would, and if they meant to include panel enclosures they would have added that much more wording to the already long statement.

Just because wires may pass through something does not make it a raceway.

Roger

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

A panel enclosure (Cabinet or Cutout Box) holds wire and busbars and has a specific definition not included in RACEWAYS.

[/I]


Sure we have and we have also seen unbroken wires pass through wiring devices, does that make them raceways?



Sure they would, and if they meant to include panel enclosures they would have added that much more wording to the already long statement.

Just because wires may pass through something does not make it a raceway.

Roger

All that you proved is that not all raceways are cabinets. Does not mean a cabinet is not a raceway just means it has other functions.

All mustangs are cars but all cars are not mustangs

I respect your opinion on this and i read it several times and simply can't see it excluding a panel.

As far as it being issue as in the OP i don't see it as a violation