GFCI VS. GFPE Commercial Kitchen

[brother]

I know the difference in gfci and gfpe. Gfci is for people protection (5 ma) and gfpe is for equipment protection (30 ma).

Had a conversation here recently with a guy that claimed that some electricians were allowed to SWITCH the gfci (5 ma) breaker for the gfpe (30 ma) breaker in a kitchen because the (NEW)freezers and refrigerators were tripping them.

They say the inspector allowed it since this was a 'dedicated line' for that freezer equipment even though it was STILL in the kitchen. This is NOT hardwired equipment and yes its 15 and 20 amp 125 volt receptacles that the freezers and frigs are plugged into. So I asked how can they interpet that from NEC 2008 210.8(B)(2) that way???!! That gfci is a '5 ma' not the '30 ma' .

They only say this is for equipment and the people won't be using that outlet much and that section was meant for outlets people can use frequently. Also, there is no 'specific statement in the code that says what the 'ma' should be' in that section, only that gfci is required.

Am I missing something here?? I have NEVER read that section that way and just because the manufacture 'admits' that their equipment can't stay within the 5 ma threshhold, thats THEIR problem and not the electricians.

Has anyone read that section that way?? Is this done like this anywhere else?? By the way they are calling the 'gfpe (30 ma) ' a gfci, So that causing confusion too.

 

[augie47]

FWIW, I know of no NEC section that would permit such a substitution.

 

[iwire]

Ditto what Gus said and regardless of what the inspector let them do they will be a tough spot if someone is injured using those circuits.

FWIW GFP can be any value, not just 30 ma.

 

[chris kennedy]

FWIW GFP can be any value, not just 30 ma.

Can you get that in a 20A breaker?

 

[iwire]

Can you get that in a 20A breaker?

30 ma, yeah no problem.

A 20 amp adjustable GFP breaker much tougher and likely going to be a large breaker that needs switchgear to mount it in.

Don't forget you can also get external GFP units that will trip a shunt trip breaker.

 

[brian john]

30 ma, yeah no problem.

A 20 amp adjustable GFP breaker much tougher and likely going to be a large breaker that needs switchgear to mount it in.

Don't forget you can also get external GFP units that will trip a shunt trip breaker.

You could get a shunt trip CB and a separate GFP relay and CT.

 

[ASG]

Is the Freezer on the countertop? If not, what section says it needs a GFCI in the first place?

 

[RICK NAPIER]

2008 nec 210.8(b)2 since it is a non dwelling use.

 

[cowboyjwc]

We've had this converstaion before and if the equipment is tripping the GFCI, not the electricians fault, let the appliance guy deal with it.

 

[bphgravity]

They only say this is for equipment and the people won't be using that outlet much and that section was meant for outlets people can use frequently.

Wrong. The genesis of this requirement had to do with employees coming in contact with the cord-and-plug connected appliance on a wet kitchen floor. It had and has nothing to do with the action or use of the receptacle outlet.

Also, there is no 'specific statement in the code that says what the 'ma' should be' in that section, only that gfci is required.

Sure there is. Section 210.8 calls for GFCI protection. Article 100 defines GFCI as a Class A device. UL93 identifies a Class A device as one that operates at 4mA - 6mA.


As I see it, the inspector is guilty of gross negligence, misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance. An inspector / CBO / AHJ is not legally permitted to allow non-compliance with the code. This is not a 90.4 thing or "special permission for equivalent compliance" matter.

The installer / contractor is also guilty of these charges. "The inspector let me do it" is not a defendable action. As a licensed professional performing a service under cotnract, non-compliance with the code is a crime, regardless of what the local AHJ allows, ignores, or simply doesn't require...

 

[brother]

Wrong. The genesis of this requirement had to do with employees coming in contact with the cord-and-plug connected appliance on a wet kitchen floor. It had and has nothing to do with the action or use of the receptacle outlet.



Sure there is. Section 210.8 calls for GFCI protection. Article 100 defines GFCI as a Class A device. UL93 identifies a Class A device as one that operates at 4mA - 6mA.


As I see it, the inspector is guilty of gross negligence, misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance. An inspector / CBO / AHJ is not legally permitted to allow non-compliance with the code. This is not a 90.4 thing or "special permission for equivalent compliance" matter.

The installer / contractor is also guilty of these charges. "The inspector let me do it" is not a defendable action. As a licensed professional performing a service under cotnract, non-compliance with the code is a crime, regardless of what the local AHJ allows, ignores, or simply doesn't require...

After I had posted my thread, I had read the 'definitions' again. Your right about the 'gfci' definition. It surpised that this guy told me they even made the electricians go back and 'REMOVE' the gfci breakers and some receptacles in this 'kitchen' because of the freezers doing that. I just could NOT believe that, but he has no reason to lie to me.

For an update on a job, they wanted a buddy of mine to do the same, I said DONT DO IT unless someone from the AHJ puts it in writing. I just can't believe they would let this go. The only 'loophole' I see in the code is that if you hard wire it!! But that would not be practicle for them since most of their equipmentis on wheels, and they want to be able to move them around.

The appliance guy did check their equipment and ADMITTED that these units have problems with gfci and change some wiring on it. So far there hasn't been any trips lately, but stay tuned.

 

[brother]

Maybe this is only 'local jurisdiction' but Does anyone know of a way to report inspectors, Im not sure if this just gets settled with the Chief inspector in our area, but I wonder would there be any outside 'authority' that could help with silly things like these installations.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Maybe this is only 'local jurisdiction' but Does anyone know of a way to report inspectors, Im not sure if this just gets settled with the Chief inspector in our area, but I wonder would there be any outside 'authority' that could help with silly things like these installations.

I answer to the inspector supervisor, who answers to the Deputy Building Official, who answers to the Building official, who answers to the director of Environmental Services, who answers to the City Manager, who answers to the City Council.

Like I've said before, everyone has a boss.

Most jurisdictions have a Building and Safety Review Board, now this is to usually dispute a call or an interprutation, but I would think that if you had enough complaints about an inspector, that maybe they could help.