Inspection Judgement

[jxofaltrds]

Just paint the PVC gray and you are good to go. Seriously, I heard that an inspector in our area told this to a homeowner after he used plumbing pipe. :roll:

I am with the other- it is existing and I don't see what the POCO has to do with it since it is not their jurisdiction. I would also find out if this was done with a permit or not. If not then , IMO, it is subject to redo.

It was a permitted job.

Wow, this one heck of a damned if you do and damned if you don't dilemma.

I did not look at it that way. A decision had to be made and IMHO I made the correct decision. What made this easier for me was that I started with looking at the safety aspect of the installation then compared it to the code. I like black and white but we live in a gray world.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Slightly OT : Ever wonder what the real difference is in the PVC between electrical and plumbing?

The color--

You would think schedule 40 is schedule 40. Now I wonder what kind of elbows were used.

What about 230.50(B)(1)(3). Schedule 80?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

What about 230.50(B)(1)(3). Schedule 80?

It depends if it is subject to physical damage. IMO, that statement is worthless as it is too subjective. We had one inspection area that says if it comes out of the ground it is subject to damage and others that don't see it that way. Personally if it is up against a structure where there are no vehicles then I say schedule 40 is good.

If you want to get technical, art. 230.50(B)(1) is referencing service cables not conductors.

 

[jumper]

The color--

Guess you do not run much Schedule 80 plumbing PVC pipe.:roll:grin

 

[jumper]

I did not look at it that way. A decision had to be made and IMHO I made the correct decision. What made this easier for me was that I started with looking at the safety aspect of the installation then compared it to the code. I like black and white but we live in a gray world.

I did not mean in any way that I thought you made the wrong decision.

I agree that it is a gray area. Since I am not an inspector, EC, or supervisor I do not face these decisions and I will not comment on the validity of your decision in this case. It was a call that is over my pay grade.

 

[jxofaltrds]

It depends if it is subject to physical damage. IMO, that statement is worthless as it is too subjective. We had one inspection area that says if it comes out of the ground it is subject to damage and others that don't see it that way. Personally if it is up against a structure where there are no vehicles then I say schedule 40 is good.

If you want to get technical, art. 230.50(B)(1) is referencing service cables not conductors.

I thought 230.50(B) applied?

I did not mean in any way that I thought you made the wrong decision.

I agree that it is a gray area. Since I am not an inspector, EC, or supervisor I do not face these decisions and I will not comment on the validity of your decision in this case. It was a call that is over my pay grade.

I did not read anything into what you said. I try to read things more than once since you have to read what I write like 10 times before you understand me.

 

[eprice]

A service for a manufactured home. The service entrance conductors were protected by Schedule 40 PVC (plumbing pipe).

Violation of 230.50(A) to 300.5(D)(4).

This was an existing service getting re-connected. Codes in place at the time of my inspection. 2005 NEC.

This is a clear violation but it is 'grandfathered' unless it is unsafe. Nothing was codified when this was originally installed. No code in place no violation of the code.

I found no reason to turn the service down, no safety concerns. POCO refused to connect the power. Forget that this is outside of their jurisdiction.

Would you have approved or dis-approved the service.

I think the part that I have made bold is key. It doesn't matter what the NEC of the time said, if it wasn't adopted by the jurisdiction,it wasn't code, and was no more enforceable than my diary. If the installation was legal at the time it was installed (and with no code in place, it was) then the only way that you could turn it down now would be if you saw an immediate safety concern. The manufactured home may be new, but the service isn't. If I plug a new range into my existing range receptacle (legal at the time of install), I'm not required to bring the existing circuit to current code. If you didn't see a safety concern, then I think you made the right call.

 

[jim dungar]

Slightly OT : Ever wonder what the real difference is in the PVC between electrical and plumbing?

Actually, most white plumbing pipe is actually ABS not PVC. this is one reason not to 'borrow' glue from the plumbers.

 

[electricmanscott]

Actually, most white plumbing pipe is actually ABS not PVC.

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect.

 

[renosteinke]

Theory, practice, reality.

The theory is that plumbing pipe and electrical pipe are made to different standards. PVC conduit needs to contain chemical stiffeners - there won't be water pressure to help it hold its' shape - and is rated for sunlight exposure. It also needs to be approved for the use. Plumbing pipe needs to meet sanitary standards and has limits on lead and other ingredients.

The practice, of course, is to look for the UL lable.

In reality, the pipe manufacturers tend to use exactly the same formulation, add a bit of color, and print as few of those expensive lables as possible.

The key is the term "AHJ." In the end, the guy who makes the rules has the only opinion that matters. Since you were overruled, you were -by definition- wrong. Once overruled, it's not your call to make.

 

[LarryFine]

Actually, most white plumbing pipe is actually ABS not PVC.

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect.

I agree. The ABS pipe I've seen was black.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Theory, practice, reality.


The key is the term "AHJ." In the end, the guy who makes the rules has the only opinion that matters. Since you were overruled, you were -by definition- wrong. Once overruled, it's not your call to make.

I was not over ruled. Someone without the facts said that "I did not know what I was doing".

The 'facts' were from the homeowner via an employee from the POCO.

The homeowner was mad because I approved the installation then the POCO made them change it. The AHJ was not contacted until the change was made and after the homeowners made the call to the state.

Here is how it works in Ohio. The AHJ can interpret the code and tell the ESI how to enforce it. The AHJ can not approve or disapprove the electrical installation unless he is an ESI.

Prior to 27 May 2006 Ohio had no certified 'residential' building departments. So every jurisdiction could hire anyone to inspect all the permitted work (residential 1,2,3 family) EXCEPT the electrical.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I agree. The ABS pipe I've seen was black.

http://www.ppfahome.org/abs/index.html

Or

http://www.charlottepipe.com/

 

[jim dungar]

My error, it appears ABS has no color scheme, but it ain't white, while PVC does.

From one of Mikes references


""Because PVC piping system components can be manufactured in a variety of colors, identification of application is easy. A common color scheme (although not universal) is:

• White for DWV and some low pressure applications.
• White, blue, and dark gray for cold water piping.
• Green for sewer service.
• Dark gray for industrial pressure applications.

This color scheme has an exception in that much of the white PVC pipe is dual rated for DWV and pressure applications."

And I was trying so hard not to learn something new today.

 

[westernexplorer]

I would advise anyone that is professionally involved in the use or enforcement of an legally adopted code obtain, read, and re-read often the ICC publication, "Legal Aspects of Code Administration."

It's a real eye-opener and will likely change the way you look at everything. It did for me.

Excellent book and it is a huge eye opener..... I read it 6 years ago when I sat for a Building Official exam and it is a must read for all Inspector"s....

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Musings from the house plumber...

Musings from the house plumber...

Yes you can glue PVC to ABS...


http://www.oatey.com/Plumber/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/166/ABS+to+PVC+Transition+Green+Cement.html

A long time ago, I had an EC borrow a short piece of 2" DWV PVC from me, was a little short on his conduit, they backfilled that section of the ditch.....

 

[mikeames]

In any event I do think its your obligation to explain to the owner the situation. Maybe you can technically apporve it for the reasons describe however its is not a clear cut decision. I think it is your duty to inform the customer of the potential problem with the POCO. That way if or when the POCO did refuse to power up the customer cant get mad at you. I do understand their frustration. I would be pissed to. JMHO

 

[jxofaltrds]

In any event I do think its your obligation to explain to the owner the situation. Maybe you can technically apporve it for the reasons describe however its is not a clear cut decision. I think it is your duty to inform the customer of the potential problem with the POCO. That way if or when the POCO did refuse to power up the customer cant get mad at you. I do understand their frustration. I would be pissed to. JMHO

No. The decision to approve was clear. I have no obligation to explain why I it passed. The POCO was out of line.

The problem was that the homeowner replaced the pipe without calling the AHJ. If so I would have explained to the AHJ why I passed it. Had they done so the POCO would have been out there the next day connecting power.

 

[mikeames]

I am totally confused. I dont understand the situation. All I got was you approved a service with DWV pipe, and the POCO refused to power it up, thus the homeowner was mad. If the homeowner changed something after your inspection then thats different.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I am totally confused. I dont understand the situation. All I got was you approved a service with DWV pipe, and the POCO refused to power it up, thus the homeowner was mad. If the homeowner changed something after your inspection then thats different.

The POCO would not energize what I approved.