Broken GE switchgear mechanism

[brian john]

I have worked on quite a few of these with broken/damaged operators and lubrication never did any good, typically it is a broken mechanism,.

 

[brian john]

Not to rob Zog of a sale here, but your switch has a shunt trip on it and if the shunt coil was damaged in whatever caused the original POCO outage, then it may not be releasing which would make it so that you can't charge it.

Still, from the sounds of it someone cranked that handle the wrong way and broke something.

You should be able to charge and attempt to close it, the switch would trip free.

 

[LarryFine]

You should be able to charge and attempt to close it, the switch would trip free.

Definitely not what happens.

PM just sent.

 

[ATSman]

I think you are putting more into this than there needs to be. I have never seen instuctions on cleaning dust and crap out of a breaker, of course I have not seen everything.

In 25 yrs I have never had an issue with cleaning and re-lubing breakers mechanics. Were not talking about submersing the breaker here.:roll:

Most every large frame breaker I have seen, the springs and ratchet assembly is fully exposed just behind the front cover. I don't think we are talking about the newest electronic type breakers or MV type breakers.

Larry can do as he wishes but there is no need to sell the customer a "new" breaker if it is just dirty.

I fully argee.

 

[ATSman]

Stick With The Basics

Stick With The Basics

Good point. I'd hate to replace the switch and have the new one do the same thing. How does one tell?

It does, and it certainly feels like a mechanical problem. Again, how does one make sure it's not electrical?

Gentlemen, stick with the opening post: the symptions indicate that the closing springs are not fully charging. A "trip-free" condition (closing springs discharge but the contacts don't close) only exists when the closing springs are CHARGED and the contacts try to close, as in the case of a shunt trip solenoid stuck in the tripped position. There can be only 2 reasons why the closing springs are not charging: 1. the closing spring mechanism is faulty (broken) 2. dried grease in the mechanism not allowing cams and latches to reset (dirt and lack of proper lubrication.)
Try to clean, lube and exercise it first but don't use brake cleaner:roll:
Use a good contact cleaner (CRC) and grease (Mobil Temp SHC32 red, used by GE.)
If this fails then replace the switch. If the customer has multiple switches then have the old one repaired and kept as a spare.
Also, you cannot turn the handle "the wrong way." The charging operation requires turning the handle CW and CCW 3 times till the springs fully charge and the switch closes.

 

[iwire]

Tony, it seems your customers would be just as well off hiring a labor or shade tree mechanic.

If I was Larry I would follow Zogs advice.

 

[ATSman]

I give Up!

I give Up!

Tony, it seems your customers would be just as well off hiring a labor or shade tree mechanic.

If I was Larry I would follow Zogs advice.

Bob,
So your solution to fixing all switchgear problems is to replace the equipment?
If that is the case then I have been doing everthing wrong for 40 yrs!
PM is a big part of my business and I guess having my own business for
22 years is by dumb luck! Just because someone lacks the knowledge to find the root cause and correct the problem in the most effecient and economical way to serve the customer is no reason to sell the customer new equipment.
You all sound like ASCO salesmen to me!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LarryFine]

Gentlemen, stick with the opening post: the symptions indicate that the closing springs are not fully charging.

They're not even beginning to charge. When I turn the candle CCW and the back, the open button goes in slightly and the #1 moves from the window, and then they come back. We never see the #2.

If this fails then replace the switch. If the customer has multiple switches then have the old one repaired and kept as a spare.

The customer had already replaced the other switch in the same cabinet, and has accepted the replacement idea.

 

[LarryFine]

If I was Larry I would follow Zogs advice.

That's my plan. I've already submitted the proposal, and am hoping to hear back soon.

 

[LarryFine]

Just because someone lacks the knowledge to find the root cause and correct the problem in the most effecient and economical way to serve the customer is no reason to sell the customer new equipment.

Tony, let's say I try your idea. How do I find the sticking/slipping part, make sure the cleaning/lubing works, and guarantee they won't have the issue again?

 

[iwire]

Bob,
So your solution to fixing all switchgear problems is to replace the equipment?

No, my solution is not to do things that I am not trained or qualified to do when the results could be catastrophic. If I hit this with some lube and a month later the breaker does not trip if it should have I really done well by the customer or the company I work for.

If it was me that had been sent out to this call I would have called in an expert.

If that is the case then I have been doing everthing wrong for 40 yrs!

The fact that you are scoffing at Zogs expert advice does suggest you have been doing at least somethings wrong.

PM is a big part of my business and I guess having my own business for 22 years is by dumb luck!

And Zog rebuilds breakers for a living, he has been doing so for a long time.

His advice may at times seem over the top but it will protect all parties from damages and liabilities.

You all sound like ASCO salesmen to me!!!!!!!!!!!

:grin: No, but I do make money providing equipment,

 

[zog]

Bob,
So your solution to fixing all switchgear problems is to replace the equipment?

Not at all, in fact I always preach the test and troubleshoot methods before considering replacement. Replacement is usually the last resort.

If that is the case then I have been doing everthing wrong for 40 yrs!
PM is a big part of my business and I guess having my own business for
22 years is by dumb luck!

Spraying brake cleaner, spray lubes, and mixing lubricants is the #1 reason for mechanisim failures, it may be the best quick solution at times but has long term effects. Here is an article you may find interesting. http://www.netaworld.org/files/neta-journals/NWsu07-Demaria.pdf

Just because someone lacks the knowledge to find the root cause and correct the problem in the most effecient and economical way to serve the customer is no reason to sell the customer new equipment.

Larry has already tried several other things, including talking to the guy as far as I know is the most experienced with these switches in his area, who recommended the replacement.

 

[brian john]

Having worked on more than a few of these switches I can tell you IT IS NOT the shunt trip affecting the charging. Two seperate items, the charging is completed and if the shunt trip is active, it will cause the switch to trip free. That is the device will attempt to close and immedatly open.

Not picking on anyone, but the number of firms we have followed up on that claim to be EPM experts only to see major problems, from damaged switches to injured or dead employees is ridculous.

Had a frim using penetrox on switch blades.

It does not take a specialists but it does take someone with some expierence, which means more than a license and the proper test equipment.

 

[brian john]

What was/is the final outcome of the repair?

 

[LarryFine]

What was/is the final outcome of the repair?

Still waiting for approval. Tick, tock, tick, tock . . .

 

[ATSman]

Ok, let's all calm down. Bob, Zog, Brian, etc, I think we all have something to bring to the table in solving problems. We learn something every day. That is why I always come back to this forum. When I read Bob's last post it was like a revelation.....that's it!!. ...he is absolutly correct.....!!!
Do not do anything that you are not comfortable with. My reaction to Brian's problem was from the gut. Not even thinking that he was not on the same level of experience with breakers and switches. To me it is all common sense since I have been doing it for so long and know what works and what doesn't with switchgear. I am not bragging, just trying to explain things from my prospective. If someone has a different experience then I am eager to learn from him. I will (and hope all of you will) try to put a more positive approach on future posts.
Brian, my suggestion to you is to replace the switch because of the political nature of what has transpired. Without the experience and confidence in how you should proceed, I think you have no choice.
As always guys, keep the problems coming and hopefully we can resolve them in a civilized manner:roll:
Zog, I definitely have issues with NETA, BUT............... I will save them for another post.

Tony

 

[shepelec]

Brake cleaner?

Brake cleaner?

...............

 

[zog]

Zog, I definitely have issues with NETA, BUT............... I will save them for another post.

Tony

NETA is a testing org, and thier techs are not required to be trained on the proper maintenence or repairs of power distribution equipment, but most NETA companies still "provide this service". Testing is a different animal, Being a former NETA IV tech I can relate, back then I thought I understood the mechanics but now I know I knew just enough to be dangerous. But when it comes to testing procedures NETA provides the best specs and training in the industry,

 

[ATSman]

Ok, let's all calm down. Bob, Zog, Brian, etc, I think we all have something to bring to the table in solving problems. We learn something every day. That is why I always come back to this forum. When I read Bob's last post it was like a revelation.....that's it!!. ...he is absolutly correct.....!!!
Do not do anything that you are not comfortable with. My reaction to Brian's problem was from the gut. Not even thinking that he was not on the same level of experience with breakers and switches. To me it is all common sense since I have been doing it for so long and know what works and what doesn't with switchgear. I am not bragging, just trying to explain things from my prospective. If someone has a different experience then I am eager to learn from him. I will (and hope all of you will) try to put a more positive approach on future posts.
Brian, my suggestion to you is to replace the switch because of the political nature of what has transpired. Without the experience and confidence in how you should proceed, I think you have no choice.
As always guys, keep the problems coming and hopefully we can resolve them in a civilized manner:roll:
Zog, I definitely have issues with NETA, BUT............... I will save them for another post.

Tony

Sorry, I said Brian, I meant Larry Fine.

 

[ATSman]

Zog
Thanks for the interesting article on lubricants.