failed inspection on a existing wiring on a kitchen countertop

[electricmanscott]

Care to share what town this buffoon is inspecting in?

Don't let this guy bully you. He has nothing to back up what he is requesting.

I am so sick and tired of dealing with these incompetent, uneducated morons. Two weeks ago I had an inspector tell me ALL kitchen wiring had to be #12. I had 14/3 MWBCS for the appliances. "We like to see all 12" "that's the way we interpret the code but I'll let it go this time" Really dumbass, you'll let it go this time??? Boy aren't you a sport.

After he left I proceeded to rip him up and down to the HO who happens to be his buddy. Final inspection may be a bear. :roll:

 

[JWCELECTRIC]

Care to share what town this buffoon is inspecting in?

Don't let this guy bully you. He has nothing to back up what he is requesting.

I am so sick and tired of dealing with these incompetent, uneducated morons. Two weeks ago I had an inspector tell me ALL kitchen wiring had to be #12. I had 14/3 MWBCS for the appliances. "We like to see all 12" "that's the way we interpret the code but I'll let it go this time" Really dumbass, you'll let it go this time??? Boy aren't you a sport.

After he left I proceeded to rip him up and down to the HO who happens to be his buddy. Final inspection may be a bear. :roll:

Scott what town are you dealing with there if you don't mind?

 

[K8MHZ]

Care to share what town this buffoon is inspecting in?

Don't let this guy bully you. He has nothing to back up what he is requesting.

I am so sick and tired of dealing with these incompetent, uneducated morons. Two weeks ago I had an inspector tell me ALL kitchen wiring had to be #12. I had 14/3 MWBCS for the appliances. "We like to see all 12" "that's the way we interpret the code but I'll let it go this time" Really dumbass, you'll let it go this time??? Boy aren't you a sport.

After he left I proceeded to rip him up and down to the HO who happens to be his buddy. Final inspection may be a bear. :roll:

With the exception of a fridge circuit, the way I read it, the inspector is correct.

210.11 requires all receptacles covered by 210.52(B) to be 20 amp circuits.

We seem to disagree....care to tell me where the exception that allows a 15 amp circuit for appliances in a kitchen?

 

[growler]

I was asked to swap out all the kitchen counter plugs on a kitchen remodel, they are not spaced correctly according to the nec.

What was the permit for, around here (CA) you don't need a permit for cabinets or counter tops. Ask him who should pay for the additional work that HE wants and is not required or requested.

Here you wouldn't need a permit either but if you did permit (building permit ) a "kitchen remodel" then you would be expected to bring the electrical up to code.

I would look closely to see what's written on the permit application. What you plan to do and what you state on the application can be different.

I have learned to use the word "repair" whenever possible.

 

[jwjrw]

With the exception of a fridge circuit, the way I read it, the inspector is correct.

210.11 requires all receptacles covered by 210.52(B) to be 20 amp circuits.

We seem to disagree....care to tell me where the exception that allows a 15 amp circuit for appliances in a kitchen?

210.52(b) says RECEPTACLE OUTLETS SERVED. It does not say all appliances require a 20 amp circuit. It says receptacle's on the counter top must be a 20 amp circuit. We pull 14 Mwbc's for dishwasher and disposal circuits all the time.

 

[K8MHZ]

210.52(b) says RECEPTACLE OUTLETS SERVED. It does not say all appliances require a 20 amp circuit. It says receptacle's on the counter top must be a 20 amp circuit. We pull 14 Mwbc's for dishwasher and disposal circuits all the time.

Gotcha....

I also wasn't thinking about lights that could have 14 AWG run to them.

 

[pete m.]

Here is what is posted under electrical interpretations on my county's inspection website.


http://charmeck.org/mecklenburg/county/CodeEnforcement/Electrical/Documents/BathRemodels.pdf

"120/240 volt range, oven, and cooktop circuits must be changed to 4-wire circuits unless doing so would result in damage to wall covering in a portion of the house not involved in the remodel."


Why would they give you an exemption for the "120/240 range" circuit if it would damage interior finish to run a new 4-wire circuit? Running 2 new 20 amp branch circuits probably wont damage any interior finish?!?!?!?:roll::roll:

 

[jxofaltrds]

Does your state have anything like this in the building code?

"115.6 Replacement and repairs to systems, components and materials.

Replacement of building components and repairs to existing systems and materials or building components not otherwise provided for in this section shall not be required to meet the provisions for new construction, provided such work is done in accordance with the conditions of the existing approval in the same manner and arrangement as was in the existing system, is not less safe than when originally installed and is approved."

From http://charmeck.org/mecklenburg/county/CodeEnforcement/Electrical/Documents/BathRemodels.pdf

"PROBLEM: Electrical not meeting requirements on kitchen remodels"

I say that there is no problem since the electrical installation is existing and the counter layout has not changed. No problem ---- this clarification does not apply.

Now if the layout has changed all bets are off.

"SOLUTION: When countertop cabinets are installed, replaced (in part or whole), or added, the countertop outlet requirements in the vicinity of the cabinets shall meet current NEC.************** Replacement of countertops or door facing only is exempt from these requirements."

Which is it?

"*****All current code requirements must be met with the installation of new electrical equipment or appliances.*****"

I agree.

"******120/240 volt range, oven, and cooktop circuits must be changed to 4-wire circuits unless doing so would result in damage to wall covering in a portion of the house not involved in the remodel.*****"

I agree with Pete. This makes little sense.
IMHO this clarification should be clarified.

Finally why does replacing devices require an inspection? Are light bulbs next?

 

[electricmanscott]

Scott what town are you dealing with there if you don't mind?

Sure, I'll share. Westford.

Things like what the inspector said irk me to no end. I see nothing but garbage wiring out there that gets by and make sure I go at least code minimum but usually far beyond. Then I have to deal with yahoo inspectors who just have to find something to nit pick and 99.9 % of the time they are wrong. Drives me batpoop crazy

 

[electricmanscott]

With the exception of a fridge circuit, the way I read it, the inspector is correct.

210.11 requires all receptacles covered by 210.52(B) to be 20 amp circuits.

We seem to disagree....care to tell me where the exception that allows a 15 amp circuit for appliances in a kitchen?

Required wall, counter, floor receptacles, that's all that is required to be fed from at least two 20 amp small appliance branch circuits.

Dishwasher, disposal, microwave, warming drawer, instant hot, etc etc do not fall under 210.52.

422 is where you want to be.

 

[renosteinke]

There is a principle that 'major' remodels require the entire are to be brought up to current code. The distinction is made based upon the cost of the remodel vs. the expected cost of doing it all new. If your remodel costs more than half the cost of a complete gut, you get to bring it all up to code.

That's the principle. Language to that effect is found in the IBC and IRC, which specifically address the issue.

"Where is it in the NEC" is the wrong question to ask. It's not enough to know only the NEC; there are myriad other codes which we are required to follow as well. "Tunnel vision" will only hurt you.

Slightly off topic, but that is one reason I have had issues with the AFCI rules; the complete rewire that would be the natural consequence of applying them would turn a simple circuit extension into having to rebuild the entire house. Adding a new plug in a bedroom could very well result in your being required to replace your now-to-small-for-code sewer lines. At least the 2011 allows for hope that there will someday be AFCI devices! But I wander ....

 

[jwjrw]

"120/240 volt range, oven, and cooktop circuits must be changed to 4-wire circuits unless doing so would result in damage to wall covering in a portion of the house not involved in the remodel."


Why would they give you an exemption for the "120/240 range" circuit if it would damage interior finish to run a new 4-wire circuit? Running 2 new 20 amp branch circuits probably wont damage any interior finish?!?!?!?:roll::roll:

Welcome to my world.

 

[pete m.]

Welcome to my world.

I feel for ya!

Pete

 

[iwire]

There is a principle that 'major' remodels require the entire are to be brought up to current code. The distinction is made based upon the cost of the remodel vs. the expected cost of doing it all new. If your remodel costs more than half the cost of a complete gut, you get to bring it all up to code.

That's the principle. Language to that effect is found in the IBC and IRC, which specifically address the issue.

If you want to talk about those codes lets see them.

"Where is it in the NEC" is the wrong question to ask. It's not enough to know only the NEC; there are myriad other codes which we are required to follow as well. "Tunnel vision" will only hurt you.

This is an NEC forum.

The question is about an electrical inspector.

The question was from a MA resident and the MA electrical code answers the question. In this case tunnel vision is exactly what is needed.

 

[pete m.]

Then I have to deal with yahoo inspectors who just have to find something to nit pick and 99.9 % of the time they are wrong.

What do you do to correct them? Do they all simply plant their feet in the mud and refuse to have an actual conversation about how and why they feel something you did was not in compliance with the minimum code standards?

I know that you can't fight each and every battle or you would never get any work done but I personally do my best as an inspector, if I have to defect an installation, to assure that what I am defecting actually is a code violation. Perhaps some, or all, of these "yahoos" need to be either educated or directed to another line of work.

Pete

 

[JWCELECTRIC]

Sure, I'll share. Westford.

Things like what the inspector said irk me to no end. I see nothing but garbage wiring out there that gets by and make sure I go at least code minimum but usually far beyond. Then I have to deal with yahoo inspectors who just have to find something to nit pick and 99.9 % of the time they are wrong. Drives me batpoop crazy

He inspects for Chelmsford also.

 

[iwire]

He inspects for Chelmsford also.

Do you know who inspector for Andover? Is it still the same old guy that likes to yell and scream?

 

[K8MHZ]

Required wall, counter, floor receptacles, that's all that is required to be fed from at least two 20 amp small appliance branch circuits.

Dishwasher, disposal, microwave, warming drawer, instant hot, etc etc do not fall under 210.52.

422 is where you want to be.

Thanks,

My bad, I was stuck on receptacles and didn't take time to think about the other loads.

 

[JWCELECTRIC]

Do you know who inspector for Andover? Is it still the same old guy that likes to yell and scream?

Funny you ask, I had an rough inspection couple weeks ago there, he busted my chops for installing the outlets overa few inches over the 12' along the walls, and little over 6' from doors, had to add/move a couple. We try to lay things out to code, studs, and per quotes. He seemed to be on the home owners side without yelling.

 

[iwire]

If it is still the same guy I had to deal with him twice and both times he was out of line.