Why we can't compete with handy man.

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Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
It would not be legal for me to do the work because I am not a licensed electrician. Yes, I did what I could to temporarily remove some of the risk. Yes, it was probably illegal for me to do so but I felt it was better to take that chance rather than see someone get hurt. Yes, I paid for the electrician to come out and make the repairs.



The last understanding I have with the law, whether you charge someone or not is of no consequence in MN. If you are not licensensed to perform electrical work it is illegal to do so EXCEPT for your own residence. In MN you are not even allowed to do electrical work on property you own unless it is your place of residence. In order to perform electrical work even as a journeyman or plant electrician you must be at the very least working under a master's license and management. If I'm wrong about this then I apologize but this is the understanding I have since the last time I looked at the laws.

You could have got poco to pull meter ,clip the tap and closed it back up. Most linesmen would not gave you a hard time fixing mother in laws problem. Job would took what ? 2 minutes max., I really think problem is you had no clue on what to do and did smart thing by calling a real electrician.
 
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bthielen

Guest
So now your telling us your unqualified to do the job you think we should do cheap.

You did not fix her problem because you do not have the skill , not because of the license. She could have got a permit for any repair she needed and the POCO would pull meter so you can do the job.

Real problem is you could not do the job.
If this wasn't so funny I'd feel sorry for you. Qualified and capable are two entirely different things. I am fully capable but I don't carry the licensing required to do the work legally. And because of MN law I am not qualified to take the test either. She could pull all the permits she wanted and the POCO can pull the meter and I still would be unlicensed and therefore unqualified to do the work.

You think a piece of paper that indicates that you have been trained proves you are qualified? That's a bunch of bull. It takes more than that. I'll give you an example.

We hired a guy with a piece of paper that said he had an EE degree from a university. He was also honorably discharged from the military where he worked on submarine torpedo electronics. Came with all kinds of credentials and documents to support them. Because of his credentials his starting pay was 20% higher than mine and I had 10 years experience with the company. But, because I don't have that piece of paper that says I have been schooled as an Electrical Engineer, I don't qualify for the same pay level. That's fine. I chose not to pursue said degree and I am living with the consequences of my choice. No problem there. Funny thing. The guy didn't last a year. He was smart as a tack in electrical theory and was a wonderful asset for me when I couldn't remember my theory. The problem was that he was unable to put all his book smarts into practice and couldn't even do the job I had been doing. But remember, I wasn't qualified.

Why do you think the law requires a minimum amount of hands-on experience before you can even take the journeyman's test? Because there is a difference between book smart and street smart. I have never understood why the state still allows EE's to take the test without any practical experience. The EE I worked with demonstrated the need to change that law.

Designing is not even close to actually being an electrician. Too much money for you to open a ligit 1 man shop but not too much for us.
It's a time issue not a money issue. It's not worth the investment time I would need to become qualified to take necessary tests for licensing.

You run a farm that supports itself but not you. Why keep it ?
Hobby, make a little extra, I enjoy it, ...

In the case of my farm, the monetary investment to go full-time would be too extreme to make it worthwhile at this late stage in my life. I'm not interested in investing that much into something I couldn't possibly pay for in my lifetime, not to mention taking on that much stress in my life now. I watched my neighbor make that choice and saw how he and his wife both aged 20 years in less than five. That doesn't interest me. If I was still in my early 40's or younger then yes, I would be seriously looking into that possibility but not now anymore.

I'm only making a suggestion that there is a hole in the system that could be filled by someone that has already made the investment and has the desire to fill it. You don't have to fill it if you don't want to but I'm suggesting that if it doesn't get filled, the problems associated with DIYer work will continue to grow.

The proof is in the pudding. Just in my rural community when I bought this farm and took on the challenge of completely remodeling it and people found out that I did all my own electrical work they came out of the woodwork looking to hire me. Two neighbors asked if I would like to wire their homes as they remodeled. Another asked me to do some wiring because he was planning on finishing his attic to add bedroom space. Another wanted me to wire a new pole building that would be used for animal housing. Another asked me to wire their bathroom remodeling project and the list goes on. Another asked me to wire the lighting in a machine shed. And still another asked me to do some wiring at a church. I didn't even advertise and I had to turn every one of them down because I was not qualified by the State of MN to do electrical work off my own premises.

Do you know what the biggest problem was for these people? It wasn't the cost, it was the contractors that didn't want the work. The guy with the pole barn waited for nearly two years to get his project done and that was after he had already been promised it done within a couple weeks. His project just wasn't big enough for the contractor to really care that it got done in due time.

The guys that remodeled their homes did their own electrical work. I spent a lot of time helping them understand the codes so they could do it right and pass inspection. But I had to let them do the work themselves. At least I managed to convince them to have it inspected. We are not required in this county to pull a permit so long as we are not changing the exterior size and/or shape of our home. In other words we can do all the work we want inside without a permit.
 
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bthielen

Guest
This site is designed for the (See the home page).
I'll finish it for you.

This site is designed for:
Contractors
Electricians
Engineers
Inspectors
Instructors
Safety Specialists
Electrically related individuals

I work or have worked in all the bold type areas.

Engineers: I may not have a paper that says I'm an EE but I do the work of an EE and have been for over 15 years. I consider myself an engineer by proxy.

Instructors: I have been and still am responsible for electrical training of our field service personnel.

Safety Specialist: I served on our company product safety committee for five years and have been NFPA70E trained. I am familiar with many of the codes and standards we use including but not limited to NFPA79, CE, CSA, OSHA, ANSI, UL, ...

Electrically Related Individuals: I currently carry the title of Senior Electrical Designer and have been working in that capacity for over 15 years. My job includes electrical design of industrial packaging machinery up to 600vac, with extensive work in PLC programming, servo systems, smart drive technology, and instrument control. I am also responsible for designing pneumatic controls on our equipment. I am required to apply all applicable codes and standards related to the machine's final destination whether that be here in MN, another state, Canada, Central America, South America, Europe, Asia, Australia, or Africa.

I have been a member on this site for seven years and if I have not been qualified to participate then someone made a grave error.
 
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bthielen

Guest
You could have got poco to pull meter ,clip the tap and closed it back up. Most linesmen would not gave you a hard time fixing mother in laws problem. Job would took what ? 2 minutes max., I really think problem is you had no clue on what to do and did smart thing by calling a real electrician.
Does it matter whether it takes 2 minutes, 2 hours, 2 days, or....? What you're saying is that it is okay for me to do exactly what you guys were complaining about people doing....unlicensed work. If you're going to give me the authority to do this job why not any other one because I could quit my full-time job today and go freelance if that's the case.
 

stevenje

Senior Member
Location
Yachats Oregon
I'll finish it for you.
Engineers: I may not have a paper that says I'm an EE but I do the work of an EE and have been for over 15 years. I consider myself an engineer by proxy.

Here goes my blood pressure again. If you don't have the credentials as an EE then you are not a EE. Plain and simple. You just slapped every EE on this forum right in the face. Engineer by proxy.... you must be kidding.
 

OregonSE

Member
Location
Oregon
Engineer by proxy

Engineer by proxy

Electrical designer,Safety specialist?
Oh wait,theres no paper for that.I guess anyone who turns on a light switch is electrically related individual and one who sets a lamp on a table is an electrical designer/safety specialist.


Im sure a Licensed Electrical engineer would have an opinion about being an EE by proxy just like Licensed Electricians have an opinion about handymen.



I'll finish it for you.

This site is designed for:
Contractors
Electricians
Engineers
Inspectors
Instructors
Safety Specialists
Electrically related individuals

I work or have worked in all the bold type areas.

Engineers: I may not have a paper that says I'm an EE but I do the work of an EE and have been for over 15 years. I consider myself an engineer by proxy.

Instructors: I have been and still am responsible for electrical training of our field service personnel.

Safety Specialist: I served on our company product safety committee for five years and have been NFPA70E trained. I am familiar with many of the codes and standards we use including but not limited to NFPA79, CE, CSA, OSHA, ANSI, UL, ...

Electrically Related Individuals: I currently carry the title of Senior Electrical Designer and have been working in that capacity for over 15 years. My job includes electrical design of industrial packaging machinery up to 600vac, with extensive work in PLC programming, servo systems, smart drive technology, and instrument control. I am also responsible for designing pneumatic controls on our equipment. I am required to apply all applicable codes and standards related to the machine's final destination whether that be here in MN, another state, Canada, Central America, South America, Europe, Asia, Australia, or Africa.

I have been a member on this site for seven years and if I have not been qualified to participate then someone made a grave error.
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
...because I could quit my full-time job today and go freelance if that's the case.

Maybe a reality check is exactly what you need. You also have my permission to "freelance." It's a mighty step down from self-proclaimed "engineering" though.
 

SAC

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Here goes my blood pressure again. If you don't have the credentials as an EE then you are not a EE. Plain and simple. You just slapped every EE on this forum right in the face. Engineer by proxy.... you must be kidding.

I've an MSEE. I work with an engineer who I happen to know doesn't have a degree. There are about 100 EEs in my company, and if I had to pick just one of them to work with, it would be the guy without a degree. Unless you need the credentials for legal purpose, a degree is largely a piece of paper. I know too many EEs who aren't worth the paper their degree is printed on. And I know at least one who shows that school isn't the only way to learn how to do engineering, and he doesn't need the paper to prove himself.

When I was in collage a professor asked the class why so many students didn't study, do their best, etc., when they were paying so much money for school? He answered the question - because they were there to buy a degree, not an education. Slacking off was the "cheapest" way to get the degree. Sad maybe, but true.

That said, it is very tough to break into engineering to prove yourself without the degree. If you want to go the engineering path, the degree is by far the easiest (and, in my opinion, the best) way.
 

stevenje

Senior Member
Location
Yachats Oregon
if I had to pick just one of them to work with, it would be the guy without a degree.

Sac,
You won't get any argument from me. In the past I have worked with a few apprentices that were in their "15th year". For whatever reason they never tested out. They could work circles around many of the journeyman on the job site. But I never heard them say that they were "journeyman by proxy".
No card in the wallet... no journeyman. No degree on wall... no EE.
 

SAC

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Sac,
You won't get any argument from me. In the past I have worked with a few apprentices that were in their "15th year". For whatever reason they never tested out. They could work circles around many of the journeyman on the job site. But I never heard them say that they were "journeyman by proxy".
No card in the wallet... no journeyman. No degree on wall... no EE.

I think there is a confusion of terms. An EE is someone who practices electrical engineering. No degree or licensing is really implied by the term "electrical engineer". Now if someone says they have a BS EE or MS EE or PHD EE, or is a PE, and didn't actually meet the requirements of that qualification, that is something different. I think that is much more like what you are referring to with the apprentice vs. journeyman comparison. If someone asked the 15 year apprentice what they did for a living, wouldn't he answer "electrician"?
 

Minuteman

Senior Member
If someone asked the 15 year apprentice what they did for a living, wouldn't he answer "electrician"?

Yeah, so would this guy...

CRAIGS LIST

Handyman Service

Do you need a handyman?
Do you want a local handyman you can trust?
Do you want a fair price?

My name is xxxx xxxx and I have over 20 years experience in residential repairs and remodels. I specialize in the small jobs and my rates are fair. I can fix just about anything on a house. No job is too small. Estimates are always FREE and you pay when the job is done.

Windows Siding Re-roofs Electrical
Doors Concrete Roof leaks Plumbing
Trim Painting Decks Tile
Sheetrock Wood floor Tree Trimming Re-screens And Much More!!

Call xxx-xxx-xxxx

?Location:
?it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
??License info: Unlicensed
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I would say, ""Carpenter/Illegal Plumber/Illegal Electrician/Roofer/Painter/Mason"!

At least he is honest about not having a license. I hate to see the adds where they try to fake it. I have seen some that will say "certified" and other that will give a phony license number that's not even used in the state. The best one just said "Universal".
 
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