ungrounded residence

[Jim W in Tampa]

Unless he has a circuit available then he is running new romex and rather dought any is available without a ground. And if new would require the ground. I would be very cautious about using metal water pipes that we know little about.It would create a hazard if the pipe is not bonded

 

[suemarkp]

I was thinking the same thing. The key to me is what wires are being used to power the dishwasher? If existing branch circuit, I think a GFCI breaker would be all you need. If running new wires (new branch circuit or branch circuit extension), you need the EGC. But if you can run that, can't you also tie the EGC to the proper location (it doesn't have to follow the path of the circuit, can be an individual exposed wire, and kitchens are usually on perimeter walls)?

May be an issue with install instructions if it says a grounded circuit is required (unless GFCI protection is a sufficient substitute).

 

[kwired]

Exellent explaination.

What if it was not 'likely to become energized"?

I need to sleep on this one.

And just how can we determine that it is not likely to become energized?

A lot of things are not likely to become energized and get connected to EGC's anyway just in case they would become energized.

I was thinking the same thing. The key to me is what wires are being used to power the dishwasher? If existing branch circuit, I think a GFCI breaker would be all you need. If running new wires (new branch circuit or branch circuit extension), you need the EGC. But if you can run that, can't you also tie the EGC to the proper location (it doesn't have to follow the path of the circuit, can be an individual exposed wire, and kitchens are usually on perimeter walls)?


May be an issue with install instructions if it says a grounded circuit is required (unless GFCI protection is a sufficient substitute).

300.3(B)

(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).

part 2 sends you to 250.130(C) which will allow what you said, but if you can run an EGC why not run a new cable with an EGC in the new cable? I often will use the old cable to pull in the new cable in these cases.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

If existing branch circuit, I think a GFCI breaker would be all you need. If running new wires (new branch circuit or branch circuit extension), you need the EGC.

I guess I don't understand this... where does it allow no EGC if it is an existing BC?

 

[jxofaltrds]

running the gfi under the sink is a good idea. I like this forum.

thanks

Read below.

He likely has a grounded service whether he has any grounding electodes at the house or not. If the POCO connects XO on the transformer to a conductor that is grounded anywhere it is a grounded service. An ungrounded service has no intentional grounding of any of the system conductors. Ground fault monitoring equipment would be required on a system like this.

OP is likely talking about a house with no equipment grounding conductors installed with any branch circuits when he uses the term ungrounded

I think the dishwasher needs an equipment grounding conductor. Read 250.110, 250.112, and 250.114. There are not many ways out of being required to use an EGC. If using a GFCI receptacle you now have a cord and plug connected appliance and you would not be able to comply with 250.114. 250.112 may not apply at all since dishwashers are not mentioned in that article. 250.110 may allow no equiment ground if all the conditions mentioned do not exist. Distance from a grounded metal object will likely not allow it though (kitchen faucet, the water pipe supplying the dishwasher, maybe a range, are common items that could be there)

I am assuming he is trying to connect a new dishwasher - he likely needs a new circuit run to it. He can not connect it to SABC whether it has an EGC or not.

After taking more time to read I would say that the GFCI could only be used if an existing recpt. was present.

I'll bet it is also fed off a countertop circuit.

Sounding more like a new circuit is required.

 

[jxofaltrds]

And just how can we determine that it is not likely to become energized?

A lot of things are not likely to become energized and get connected to EGC's anyway just in case they would become energized.

I wish they would get rid of "likely" and just make it required.

I would say that if it was GFCI protected that it was not likely to become energized.

Likely just something silly to argue over.

 

[difowler44]

ungrounded residential

ungrounded residential

There is an existing dedicated circuit originally installed in the late 1950's in the cabinet space for the dish washer with no ECG. It had an mc cable whip that served the 200 lb. dish washer that was there. The customer said their old dish washer quit working 5 years ago, and they wanted to have a code compliant method of delivering power to the new unit.

The service is grounded, but the branch circuits do not have the ECG. I have read the articles that have been mentioned, but need to go over when it is possible to install a gfi in lieu of an ECG. There is a range near the dish washer. I didn't think of using the ground that is almost surely there. The range ground would solve the problems of having to go back to the panel which would be a daunting & expense task.

 

[jxofaltrds]

There is an existing dedicated circuit originally installed in the late 1950's in the cabinet space for the dish washer with no ECG. It had an mc cable whip that served the 200 lb. dish washer that was there. The customer said their old dish washer quit working 5 years ago, and they wanted to have a code compliant method of delivering power to the new unit.

The service is grounded, but the branch circuits do not have the ECG. I have read the articles that have been mentioned, but need to go over when it is possible to install a gfi in lieu of an ECG. There is a range near the dish washer. I didn't think of using the ground that is almost surely there. The range ground would solve the problems of having to go back to the panel which would be a daunting & expense task.

You may not pick up the egc there. A GFCI may not be used in lieu of the egc in this case. At first I thought so but was incorrect.

Using a GFCI will be an AHJ call.

If I were GOD I would approve the GFCI, assuming the facts you have given, using an existing installation. This is a gray area. Again an AHJ call.

Others here will tell you that the GFCI will make it a safe installation. Code compliant?

 

[readydave8]

Try 422.30.

thank you, now I see what you mean.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Your in a very gray area now. Some would say your just replacing an appliance. Since it is going in same location we can't call it a new install. Problem with the gfi is we have a serious hazard should it fail. Not counting on them to check it often.
Given a choice i think we all would prefer a new wire. What is being permited here ? Or is there a permit ? If permited i would drop a dime and call the inspector. We could not force you to add a 4th wire on an old direct wired cook top so why here.

 

[difowler44]

ungrounded residential

ungrounded residential

I didn't plan on pulling a permit for a dish washer plug. I originally considered the job to be "replacement of a hard wired pig tail with a plug". Pretty small job for a permit.

From my understanding of the general rules on this subject, a permit would not be required. If you replaced a broken plug plate for example (existing equipment), you would not need a permit. On the other hand, if you were replacing a panel box, you would. local jurisdiction?

There is another question for the panel. Where is the line legally drawn on needing a permit?

 

[suemarkp]

The service is grounded, but the branch circuits do not have the ECG. I have read the articles that have been mentioned, but need to go over when it is possible to install a gfi in lieu of an ECG. There is a range near the dish washer. I didn't think of using the ground that is almost surely there. The range ground would solve the problems of having to go back to the panel which would be a daunting & expense task.

I guess I don't understand this... where does it allow no EGC if it is an existing BC?

406.4(D)(2)(c) if it is cord and plug connected.

If you'd adding wire, it must contain a ground and you have to run that ground back to a source per 250.130.

If it is hard wired, you also need an EGC.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I didn't plan on pulling a permit for a dish washer plug. I originally considered the job to be "replacement of a hard wired pig tail with a plug". Pretty small job for a permit.

From my understanding of the general rules on this subject, a permit would not be required. If you replaced a broken plug plate for example (existing equipment), you would not need a permit. On the other hand, if you were replacing a panel box, you would. local jurisdiction?

There is another question for the panel. Where is the line legally drawn on needing a permit?

The ahj can draw that line any place they want.
If no permit then its up to you how you will comply. The gfi either breaker or receptacle is a starting point. After that i would suggest trying to get it a ground. Perhaps from a receptacle near it. Maybe not perfect but safer than not having any.

 

[kwired]

I didn't plan on pulling a permit for a dish washer plug. I originally considered the job to be "replacement of a hard wired pig tail with a plug". Pretty small job for a permit.

From my understanding of the general rules on this subject, a permit would not be required. If you replaced a broken plug plate for example (existing equipment), you would not need a permit. On the other hand, if you were replacing a panel box, you would. local jurisdiction?

There is another question for the panel. Where is the line legally drawn on needing a permit?

Whether or not a permit is required depends on the laws of the AHJ where the installation is located. Many times your appliance replacement project will not require one, but not always. Your liability is on the line whether there is a permit or not and you should wire to codes either way.

 

[roger]

The service is grounded, but the branch circuits do not have the ECG. I have read the articles that have been mentioned, but need to go over when it is possible to install a gfi in lieu of an ECG.

How does that comply with 250.114?

There is a range near the dish washer. I didn't think of using the ground that is almost surely there. The range ground would solve the problems of having to go back to the panel which would be a daunting & expense task.

It is more likely that there is not an EGC present in a 1950 range circuit.

Roger

 

[suemarkp]

How does that comply with 250.114?

Roger

I'm not sure it has to. I referenced the wrong section earlier. NEC 406.3(D)(3)(c) allows the replacement of a non grounding receptacle with a grounding type when GFCI protected.

The next section is worded strangely, and I'm sure how to interpret it. 406.3(E) makes it sound like you can ignore 250.114, or maybe not. Kind of a strangely worded section.

Seems kind of pointless to provide a way to install a grounding type receptacle if you can't use it for most equipment that has the 3rd grounding prong.

 

[kwired]

I'm not sure it has to. I referenced the wrong section earlier. NEC 406.3(D)(3)(c) allows the replacement of a non grounding receptacle with a grounding type when GFCI protected.

The next section is worded strangely, and I'm sure how to interpret it. 406.3(E) makes it sound like you can ignore 250.114, or maybe not. Kind of a strangely worded section.

Seems kind of pointless to provide a way to install a grounding type receptacle if you can't use it for most equipment that has the 3rd grounding prong.

E basically states that not all equipment needs to be grounded type.

Then there is a FPN reminding you to look at 250.114 because there are certain equipment required to be grounded.

 

[roger]

I'm not sure it has to. I referenced the wrong section earlier. NEC 406.3(D)(3)(c) allows the replacement of a non grounding receptacle with a grounding type when GFCI protected.

The next section is worded strangely, and I'm sure how to interpret it. 406.3(E) makes it sound like you can ignore 250.114, or maybe not. Kind of a strangely worded section.

Seems kind of pointless to provide a way to install a grounding type receptacle if you can't use it for most equipment that has the 3rd grounding prong.

See Kwireds explanation.

For this discussion, only the items covered in 250.114 are required to be connected to an EGC and the dish washer mentioned in post #3 is covered in 250.114, so an ungrounded GFCI will not do it.

Roger