GFCI for refrigerator

[taylorp]

210.52 (A) gives general provisions for installing receptacle outlets. Kitchen receptacle requirements are covered under 210.52 (B) Small Appliances. Kitchen receptacles are required to be on a Small Appliance circuit, and the NEC says that there shall be two or more for such rooms (210.11 (C)(1).

Walls are treated differently in the Kitchen. 210.52 (B) and (C) explain where to locate kitchen receptacles. In 210.52 (C)(5) it explains that wall spaces occupied by appliances or other stuff are not part of these requirements.

Therefore, I believe that wall spaces behind cabinets, refrigerators, ovens, and the like are not required by the NEC to have receptacles installed in them, but we install receptacles for the convenience. Installing a receptacle behind the refrigerator is a courtesy not a requirement. Nor is it required to put such receptacles in the kitchen on a GFCI.

I have never seen an electrician install receptacles on the kitchen wall only later to have kitchen cabinets cover them up.

 

[electricmanscott]

Installing a receptacle behind the refrigerator is a courtesy not a requirement. Nor is it required to put such receptacles in the kitchen on a GFCI.

The first part is technically true.

The second part is only partially true.

 

[electricmanscott]

I just read trough the last few pages. Based on this and many other topics I can only be immensely thankful that I don't have Mike as an inspector and I have great pity for those that do. Holy Moses!!!!!!

Sorry Mike but I have a feeling you either see black as white and white as black or you just enjoy being confrontational because some of the stuff you come up with is truly bizarre.

 

[kwired]

210.52 (A) gives general provisions for installing receptacle outlets. Kitchen receptacle requirements are covered under 210.52 (B) Small Appliances. Kitchen receptacles are required to be on a Small Appliance circuit, and the NEC says that there shall be two or more for such rooms (210.11 (C)(1).

Walls are treated differently in the Kitchen. 210.52 (B) and (C) explain where to locate kitchen receptacles. In 210.52 (C)(5) it explains that wall spaces occupied by appliances or other stuff are not part of these requirements.

Therefore, I believe that wall spaces behind cabinets, refrigerators, ovens, and the like are not required by the NEC to have receptacles installed in them, but we install receptacles for the convenience. Installing a receptacle behind the refrigerator is a courtesy not a requirement. Nor is it required to put such receptacles in the kitchen on a GFCI.

I have never seen an electrician install receptacles on the kitchen wall only later to have kitchen cabinets cover them up.

I agree with you but the problem is that 210.52 (C) is titled "countertops" which adds a lot of fuel to the fire that is being debated here. I have not seen anything in the 2008 NEC that specifically excludes the spaces in question here but I also never install receptacle there unless the equipment intended to occupy the space needs a receptacle then it is covered anyway.

210.52(B) although it applies to kitchens says nothing about placement of receptacles.

I seldom put 125 volt receptacle behind ranges unless I know it is going to be a gas range. Been burned by that only once or twice. Most people around here do not like gas ranges, so I can usually get away with that one.

I have had receptacles on a kitchen wall covered up by cabinets or other items but it was not intentional it was poor planning at rough in time, or a change of cabinet layout after rough in.

 

[480sparky]

The NEC does not require outlets on your ceiling and I can not show you that either.

Perhaps you can show me where in the NEC a 120v 15- or 20-a receptacle is required in this 24" wall space:

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but one is not required in this 24" wall space:

​

 

[jxofaltrds]

I just read trough the last few pages. Based on this and many other topics I can only be immensely thankful that I don't have Mike as an inspector and I have great pity for those that do. Holy Moses!!!!!!

Sorry Mike but I have a feeling you either see black as white and white as black or you just enjoy being confrontational because some of the stuff you come up with is truly bizarre.

How does insulting me win an argument?

 

[jxofaltrds]

Perhaps you can show me where in the NEC a 120v 15- or 20-a receptacle is required in this 24" wall space:

​

but one is not required in this 24" wall space:

​

The first graphic shows wall space as desribed in 250.52(A)(2). Tell me what exempts this space. No opinion code article.

The second graphic shows countertop wall space as described in 210.52(C)(1).

The space in graphic 2 below the countertop is not address in the NEC. So if not addressed none required.

 

[George Stolz]

Sorry to backtrack to yesterday, but I had other things going.

Correct no requirement to put the recpt. behind the frig. Just that the wall space must have one.

Now you will really like this. One behind the stove required.

Again read habitable: http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/oh/st/b4v06/st_oh_st_b4v06_2_sec002.htm?bu=OH-P-2005-000004

I fail to see how the kitchen being habitable (which was not being debated as far as I could tell) suddenly means you have to install receptacles in spaces dedicated to appliances.

422.33 doesn't even consider the space as suitable for installing a range receptacle for the purposes of disconnection, unless the drawer can be pulled out. But you believe that a general purpose receptacle is required there.

The NEC does not require outlets on your ceiling and I can not show you that either.

Let me help you: 210.52 condition (4).

I just read trough the last few pages. Based on this and many other topics I can only be immensely thankful that I don't have Mike as an inspector and I have great pity for those that do. Holy Moses!!!!!!

I seriously doubt he inspects according to some of the more peculiar stances he takes here. I imagine if he did, many of those peculiar stances would have vaporized before they made it here, trial by fire in the field and all.

I find it frustrating that he takes a stand (here) and then presents his case as fact, instead of presenting his case as a possibility to be debated. It tends to kick in the electrician's natural sense of "I've got to straighten this inspector out for the next guy!"

So, here's my attempt.

New 210.52(A)(4) would provide evidence that receptacles in one space are not to serve another, which would preclude using a counter receptacle to serve an appliance that is clearly not on a counter, such as a fridge. I consider that to be a valid argument as to make a requirement for a receptacle behind a fridge. However...

What circuit are you supplying your "required" wall space range receptacle from, Mike? All kitchen 210.52(A) wall receptacles are required to be served from the SABCs, yet your range receptacle cannot be connected to the SABCs, can it? Look at 210.52(B)(2), exception 2.

Obviously, if there is no gas pipe, there is no gas range. Therefore, you can't use the exception. Obviously, if it were wall space, you wouldn't need an exception to put a SABC-powered receptacle there, as it is in a kitchen. The exception is there, so what does that tell you, Mike?

 

[electricmanscott]

How does insulting me win an argument?

I don't mean it as an insult it's more of my opinion based on observation. I am pretty sure I'm not alone in this observation.

As for the wining the argument aspect, I know when an argument is not winnable. For example, this thread.

 

[jxofaltrds]

George

The recpt is feed either by it's own SABC or off the countertop SABC.

Why can't that area have to meet two or more articles? 210.52(A)(2) and 210.52(1) or (2) exception 2.

You are correct about the difference between debating the code and the real world.

 

[George Stolz]

The recpt is feed either by it's own SABC or off the countertop SABC.

Can't you see the paradox you are forcing yourself into?

If you call the space "210.52(A) Wall Space", and it is indisputably in the kitchen, then 210.52(B)(1) requires it to be fed from a SABC.

If you feed a receptacle behind an electric range from a SABC, then you have violated 210.52(B)(2).

That is a proof that the space behind an electric range is not 210.52(A) wall space.

Why can't that area have to meet two or more articles? 210.52(A)(2) and 210.52(1) or (2) exception 2.

Your references are unclear, please elaborate.

 

[jxofaltrds]

OK. Then help me understand.

I am allowed to have more than 2 SABC. (B).

Do they have to go to the countertop first?

Can I feed my dining room with a 3rd SABC of it's own?

 

[George Stolz]

I am allowed to have more than 2 SABC. (B).

Yes.

Do they have to go to the countertop first?

No.

Can I feed my dining room with a 3rd SABC of it's own?

Yes.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Yes.


No.


Yes.

So a single SABC could serve the range?

If so wouldn't that allow what I said? Required wall recpt. behind the range.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

The first graphic shows wall space as desribed in 250.52(A)(2). Tell me what exempts this space. No opinion code article.

The second graphic shows countertop wall space as described in 210.52(C)(1).

The space in graphic 2 below the countertop is not address in the NEC. So if not addressed none required.

I agree the first picture is wall space without the top
picture 2 leaves me with 2 areas to deal with. First is counter top and we all know how to handle that.
The second is just a 2 foot opening as it does not have what likely will be a dish washer. Problem is there is no dish washer so what I have is still wall space and i either need a receptacle or a DW.

As far as an inspector I have no issues with you. Your willing to use NEC and are a member here so that says to me your trying to be a good one even if we sometimes disagree

 

[George Stolz]

So a single SABC could serve the range?

Absolutely not.

If so wouldn't that allow what I said? Required wall recpt. behind the range.

Absolutely not: 210.52(B)(2).

Exception 2 to that section makes it clear that the space behind the range is not wall space.

210.52(B)(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

The receptacle behind a gas range is an "other outlet" than a 210.52(A) wall space receptacle. The exception proves this. Thus, a receptacle behind an electric range is something other than a 210.52(A) wall space receptacle.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I agree the first picture is wall space without the top
picture 2 leaves me with 2 areas to deal with. First is counter top and we all know how to handle that.
The second is just a 2 foot opening as it does not have what likely will be a dish washer. Problem is there is no dish washer so what I have is still wall space and i either need a receptacle or a DW.

As far as an inspector I have no issues with you. Your willing to use NEC and are a member here so that says to me your trying to be a good one even if we sometimes disagree

Thank you.

The area 'under' the countertop is not addressed in the NEC. Is it a wall? Yes. Is it 'wall space'? I say no.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Thank you.

The area 'under' the countertop is not addressed in the NEC. Is it a wall? Yes. Is it 'wall space'? I say no.

OK if we agree it is a wall and nothing is there why is it not wall space. Most here would assume for a DW but I have such a space at the end of my counter that we use for the garbage can. It could be used for anything.

This is where if i was the inspector some might think i being a hard a--. Would I tag it ?
Depends on what I believe it will be and the stamped print.

 

[jxofaltrds]

OK if we agree it is a wall and nothing is there why is it not wall space. Most here would assume for a DW but I have such a space at the end of my counter that we use for the garbage can. It could be used for anything.

This is where if i was the inspector some might think i being a hard a--. Would I tag it ?
Depends on what I believe it will be and the stamped print.

Why do I think that it is not wall space? I 'feel' that it is 'in' the cabinet.

If we have a garage on the countertop we are not required to place a recpt. in it. Correct?

 

[George Stolz]

No response, Mike?