Used hot tub - Gfci problem

[Buck Parrish]

We wired a hot tub with a 50 amp 240v gfci as required. The breaker will not hold. The owner has had the tub repair guy out replacing parts several times and it still trips. He wants me to come back to check it.
I took the wires off the terminals and if it holds. So I assume its the tubs problem. And I don't get involved with the tub esspecially a used one. But this guy is a good customer and wants help fixing it.
He has had the tub repair guy back several times and it still trips.
Do I need a megger?
Or any suggestions?

 

[Little Bill]

We wired a hot tub with a 50 amp 240v gfci as required. The breaker will not hold. The owner has had the tub repair guy out replacing parts several times and it still trips. He wants me to come back to check it.
I took the wires off the terminals and if it holds. So I assume its the tubs problem. And I don't get involved with the tub esspecially a used one. But this guy is a good customer and wants help fixing it.
He has had the tub repair guy back several times and it still trips.
Do I need a megger?
Or any suggestions?

Does it trip with the tub off, or when you start it up?

 

[Buck Parrish]

When you turn the tub on it trips.

 

[Little Bill]

When you turn the tub on it trips.

That pretty much puts the problem with the tub. Maybe you or the tub guy check for leakage from motor to ground, or check all connections in the tub circuit.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Yes, thanks, the tub guy gas been thier 4 times replacing parts.
Maybe I'll try doing a little tub technician work. Just to help him out. He is paying.

 

[Little Bill]

Yes, thanks, the tub guy gas been thier 4 times replacing parts.
Maybe I'll try doing a little tub technician work. Just to help him out. He is paying.

Is there a disconnect at the tub? If not CH makes one with GFI protection. You can use a reg. 50a at the panel and use the GFI disconnect. This is just in case you don't find anything wrong in the tub.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I suspect it is in the motor or the heater elements. Try and isolate which one is the issue. Disconnect the heater and see if it trips and then try the motor.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Okay thanks

 

[BILLY101]

Many hot tubs require 120/240 volts 4 wire. A 120/240 volt GFI must be used for it to function correctly.
The neutral on the GFI must be connected to the panel neutral bus and neutral from the hot tub must be connected to the GFI neutral terminal.

BILLY

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Many hot tubs require 120/240 volts 4 wire. A 120/240 volt GFI must be used for it to function correctly.
The neutral on the GFI must be connected to the panel neutral bus and neutral from the hot tub must be connected to the GFI neutral terminal.

BILLY

This is true. Buck has hooked up many tubs so I suspect he knows the neutral from the breaker must be connected whether the circuit requires a neutral or not.

 

[K8MHZ]

I suspect it is in the motor or the heater elements. Try and isolate which one is the issue. Disconnect the heater and see if it trips and then try the motor.

Agreed.

I have found that the heater elements are the most likely culprit. A good DVOM will usually verify that with a check from the element to the case, if not a megger will. The insulation around the elements likes to crack(which can happen as a result of moving the tub) and when they get filled with water will make a ground fault. (So make sure you test with the heating element tubes full).

 

[Buck Parrish]

This is true. Buck has hooked up many tubs so I suspect he knows the neutral from the breaker must be connected whether the circuit requires a neutral or not.

yes, thanks.

and, I'll try the heater elements first

 

[ceb58]

I suspect it is in the motor or the heater elements. Try and isolate which one is the issue. Disconnect the heater and see if it trips and then try the motor.

Process of elemination. From the sound of it the guy will have more in a used hot tub than if he would have if he bought a new one to start with. Like a freind told me this morning his father-in-law is driveing two hours one way to pick up 12 cinder block from him. Just to keep from buying them at the local supply place. 200miles @ 20 miles/gal= 10 gal/gas * $3.00per= $30.00 12 block @ $1.65ea= $19.80 Real saver:-?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Process of elemination. From the sound of it the guy will have more in a used hot tub than if he would have if he bought a new one to start with. Like a freind told me this morning his father-in-law is driveing two hours one way to pick up 12 cinder block from him. Just to keep from buying them at the local supply place. 200miles @ 20 miles/gal= 10 gal/gas * $3.00per= $30.00 12 block @ $1.65ea= $19.80 Real saver:-?

The saying goes-- Penny wise and pound foolish.

 

[growler]

The owner has had the tub repair guy out replacing parts several times and it still trips. He wants me to come back to check it.

I wish I could get paid just to swap parts out with no apparent results.

Lights are flickering. "Sire I swaped out all your fixtures and that didn't do any good what would you like swapped next"? I could milk a simple service call for thousands of dollars just by being stupid.

Doesn't this guy even test the tub before leaving or does he just swap parts and hope for the best?

 

[220/221]

Start diconnecting components one at a time and isolate the problem.

The last one I did had a tiny water leak at an element and there was a bit of calcium, chlorine or whatever, built up on the terminal. Cleaned it up and it was GTG.

The one before that was the air blower motor. Left it disconnected and had HO call the spa guy.

 

[goldstar]

As others have mentioned, it's a process of elimination. I don't know how old the tub is but if it has "plug-in" components then you can unplug all of them and plug one back in at a time and hopefully you'll find the problem. If it has hard-wired components and if you want to go through the bother leave all the components connected at the tub then disconnect all the ground wires. Obviously make sure there is no one in the tub then turn the breaker on. If the breaker holds then start landing one ground wire at a time. If the breaker trips when you land a specific wire, trace it to the component and isolate the problem.

 

[ptonsparky]

Heaters, moisture on the circuit boards, wet connections where the pump, heater etc plug in to the control enclosure. The control relays.

Pretty nice all last week and now single digits for the next few days with wind. Got the call yesterday. Brrrrrr. Grrrrr. Why do they wait??

 

[iwire]

Is there a disconnect at the tub? If not CH makes one with GFI protection. You can use a reg. 50a at the panel and use the GFI disconnect. This is just in case you don't find anything wrong in the tub.

How would this help?

 

[qcroanoke]

How would this help?

He is saying that a gfi at the tub and not in the panel would eliminate the wiring from panel to tub disconnect as the culprit. But I thik we have decided it is in the tub already.