When do repairs trigger an electrical upgrade?

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Kcasey

New member
In a pre 1970 house with ungrounded two wire system and fuse box - wouldn't a fire and total gutting of the walls and ceiling trigger an upgrade?

Inspector says the fuse box is good and most of the wire is in good shape so it doesn't have to be replaced. He suggested the home owner upgrade the electrical but he couldn't "require it" to be replaced unless it was destroyed.

Does this sound right? Most of the folks I talk to are surprised. We have to upgrade all the time for far less.

Any ideas?
 
G

G._S._Ohm

Senior Member
Location
DC area
Kcasey said:
In a pre 1970 house with ungrounded two wire system and fuse box - wouldn't a fire and total gutting of the walls and ceiling trigger an upgrade?

Inspector says the fuse box is good and most of the wire is in good shape so it doesn't have to be replaced. He suggested the home owner upgrade the electrical but he couldn't "require it" to be replaced unless it was destroyed.

Does this sound right? Most of the folks I talk to are surprised. We have to upgrade all the time for far less.

Any ideas?
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What or who started the fire?
Replacements are less urgent if the system of wiring fails gracefully, with plenty of warnings, rather than catastrophically.
 
mivey

mivey

Senior Member
iwire said:
I can't open that link.

But there is a huge difference than something getting sprayed with water opposed to being submerged in water.

It sounds like the inspector does not see water damage.
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Or contaminants. I'm not sure what is in firewater but I would not drink it.

Evaluating Water-Damaged Electrical Equipment
1 USE OF THIS PUBLICATION
This publication provides information on how to evaluate electrical equipment that has been exposed to
water through flooding, fire fighting activities, hurricanes, etc. It is designed for use by suppliers,
installers, inspectors and users of electrical products.
Electrical equipment exposed to water can be extremely hazardous if reenergized without proper
reconditioning or replacement. Reductions in integrity of electrical equipment due to moisture can affect
the ability of the equipment to perform its intended function. Damage to electrical equipment can also
result from flood waters contaminated with chemicals, sewage, oil and other debris, which will affect the
integrity and performance of the equipment. Ocean water and salt spray can be particularly damaging
due to the corrosive and conductive nature of the salt water residue.
Distributors of electrical equipment should not supply any inventory that has been subjected to water
damage. This can lead to damaged equipment still being used and creating a hazard to individuals or
property.
Click to expand...

3 ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT REPLACEMENT/RECONDITIONING REQUIREMENTS
The table shown below provides the requirements and recommendations associated with various
categories of electrical equipment that have been subjected to water damage. Where it is shown that
the equipment ?may be reconditioned? it is critical that the manufacturer of the equipment be contacted
for specific guidance.
...
Wire or cable listed for dry
locations (such as NM-B):
Replace
Equipment
...
Wire or cable that is suitable
for wet locations
(Provided the ends of the
wire or cable have not been
exposed to water and the
wire is not damaged.):
May be
Reconditioned
(Contact the
manufacturer.)
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4.5 Wire, Cable and Flexible Cords
When any wire or cable product is exposed to water, any metallic component (such as the conductor,
metallic shield, or armor) is subject to corrosion that can damage the component itself and/or cause
termination failures. If water remains in medium voltage cable, it could accelerate insulation
deterioration, causing premature failure. Wire and cable listed for only dry locations may become a
shock hazard when energized after being exposed to water.
Any recommendations for reconditioning wire and cable in Section 1.0 are based on the assumption
that the water contains no high concentrations of chemicals, oils, etc. If it is suspected that the water
has unusual contaminants, such as may be found in some floodwater, the manufacturer should be
consulted before any decision is made to continue using any wire or cable products.
Click to expand...
 
S

shepelec

Senior Member
Location
Palmer, MA
I've always gone with "If it has be exposed to heat, smoke, soot or water" it's out.

Opinions in other towns may vary but I have never had a fire adjuster question me.
 
D

dana1028

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco Bay area
Steviechia2 said:
The real question is why wouldn't the homeowner want to replace the wiring while the walls are open? That's just crazy
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Because they're too cheap/can't get someone else to pay for it.

I agree with the inspector [as an inspector] - if the wiring has not been damaged by the heat/fire [visual inspection] I am not in a position to mandate such replacement.

The NEC, under definitions [locations, dry] permit NM cable to become wet temporarily...and I have had the mfr. [in writing] say that NM cable completely saturated [rain] would not harm the cable and the cable was still suitable for installation.
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
The usual rule around here is if 50% of the building (in floor area) is being rebuilt or renovated, the entire structure must be brought to present codes.
 
S

shepelec

Senior Member
Location
Palmer, MA
dana1028 said:
Because they're too cheap/can't get someone else to pay for it.

I agree with the inspector [as an inspector] - if the wiring has not been damaged by the heat/fire [visual inspection] I am not in a position to mandate such replacement.

The NEC, under definitions [locations, dry] permit NM cable to become wet temporarily...and I have had the mfr. [in writing] say that NM cable completely saturated [rain] would not harm the cable and the cable was still suitable for installation.
Click to expand...

110.11 gives some authority to require replacement. This would appear to be a judgement call on the inspector. If I have any doubt, I will require it to be replaced.
 
P

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Kcasey said:
In a pre 1970 house with ungrounded two wire system and fuse box - wouldn't a fire and total gutting of the walls and ceiling trigger an upgrade?

Inspector says the fuse box is good and most of the wire is in good shape so it doesn't have to be replaced. He suggested the home owner upgrade the electrical but he couldn't "require it" to be replaced unless it was destroyed.

Does this sound right? Most of the folks I talk to are surprised. We have to upgrade all the time for far less.

Any ideas?
Click to expand...
I think the inspector is being rational about it. If the fuse box is "good" and the wiring is "in good shape", just what code would require replacement?
 
cowboyjwc

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
dana1028 said:
Because they're too cheap/can't get someone else to pay for it.

I agree with the inspector [as an inspector] - if the wiring has not been damaged by the heat/fire [visual inspection] I am not in a position to mandate such replacement.

The NEC, under definitions [locations, dry] permit NM cable to become wet temporarily...and I have had the mfr. [in writing] say that NM cable completely saturated [rain] would not harm the cable and the cable was still suitable for installation.
Click to expand...

I would agree. I have made them megger things if they plan on keeping them and I'm not sure and you also have to be carful of carbon build up from the fire.
 
S

sgunsel

Senior Member
In most cities, the fire water is the drinking water supply. That's why they warn you not to use the water after flushing hydrants - the flushing stirs up all the crud that has settled out in the piping during normal (relatively low flow) use.

If it was much of a fire, I would think the wiring would be damaged from the heat alone. Maybe it wasn't much of a blaze or localized to portions of the house.
 
growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Kcasey said:
In a pre 1970 house with ungrounded two wire system and fuse box - wouldn't a fire and total gutting of the walls and ceiling trigger an upgrade?

Inspector says the fuse box is good and most of the wire is in good shape so it doesn't have to be replaced. He suggested the home owner upgrade the electrical but he couldn't "require it" to be replaced unless it was destroyed.

Does this sound right? Most of the folks I talk to are surprised. We have to upgrade all the time for far less.

Any ideas?
Click to expand...

The inspector may not " require" the wiring to be replaced but it not as cut and dried as it sounds.

You have a fire like this, the power company should remove the power meter and there is no electrical service. The house is considered un-inhabitable ( condemned ). Now it becomes a matter of what will be needed to get a new certificate of occupancy. The inspector may not require that the wiring be up-grades but they will have to find a contractor that is willing to take responsibility for saying that he/she has checked out the electrical system and it is safe. There are not many that I have seen that I would be willing to say that they are safe. Between the fire department and the demolition crew that removed the drywall there is normally at least some damage. You add this damage to all the modification that have been done over the years and it starts to getting cheaper just to replace existing wiring rather than try to make repairs and warranty the job.

In many ways the inspectors let the contractors decide how much risk they are willing to take. Most of us wouldn't want any part of leaving that old wiring because that's taking responsibility for something that's not being paid for.
 
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