They left out the lighting outlet box

[mkgrady]

I have a customer that wants me to install numerous outdoor lighting fixtures. Each fixture is on a porch and is either hung from a chain or attached to an outside wall. I am to remove the existing fixture and replace with new of a similar type. The problem is the oroginal installer did not install outlet boxes. He simply screwed the fixture strap (or bar) to the wall or the ceiling. The romex feeding the light is run through the center of the strap. In some cases he just loosley wraped the solid #14 grounding wire around a screw to ground the fixture.

I can explain to the customer the need to have a proper ground on the fixture (so the CB will trip in case of a ground fault) but I am not coming up with much for the lack of a box. The only thing I can come up with is that there is not enough room in the canopy of the fixture to contain the splices. Yet the existing canopies have contained those splices for 22 years. So other than it violates the code, what can I tell them are the hazards of not having the box?

 

[S'mise]

fire insurance paid up?

fire insurance paid up?

Fire is the main reason. What if a cat wisker or a wirenut falls off? If there is a fault, sparks will fly at some termination points. Not a good thing to have sparks next to combustables.

 

[Riograndeelectric]

what does the manufacturer installation instructions say?
simple tell home owner the new lights manufacture and UL listing require the installation of a box if so required by Manufacturer

 

[Cavie]

cut in a pancake box or go home.

 

[cadpoint]

Some jobs; one just needs to put a price on it and walk away!

The selling of your skills will never out do anything a client is thinking, knows of, heard of, or even thought of, it's been working 22 years. Tough sell at best and it's just a business moment pitch for the discovery of the situation!

JMO

 

[readydave8]

I try to explain that it's statistical, every house isn't going to burn but the ones that do, the HO wishes that the lites had been hung on boxes.

Just because I've been driving without a seat belt for 22 years doesn't make it safe, just because the house didn't burn in the last 22 years doesn't mean that the box is unnecessary.

Sometimes I get thru to HO and other times not.

 

[Riograndeelectric]

also look at 300-15 of the 2008 NEC. Boxes, ConduiBodies,or Fittings- where required.

 

[mkgrady]

Fire is the main reason. What if a cat wisker or a wirenut falls off? If there is a fault, sparks will fly at some termination points. Not a good thing to have sparks next to combustables.

That's a great answer.

what does the manufacturer installation instructions say?
simple tell home owner the new lights manufacture and UL listing require the installation of a box if so required by Manufacturer

This is not a great answer (sorry and sort of kidding around). I don't want to tell them just that the box is required, I want to tell them why it is dangerous.

cut in a pancake box or go home.

I plan to put in a box of some kind but I have to get them to agree to pay me to do it.

Some jobs; one just needs to put a price on it and walk away!

The selling of your skills will never out do anything a client is thinking, knows of, heard of, or even thought of, it's been working 22 years. Tough sell at best and it's just a business moment pitch for the discovery of the situation!

I plan to do my best to seel them the box installation There are 200 of them to do.

JMO

I try to explain that it's statistical, every house isn't going to burn but the ones that do, the HO wishes that the lites had been hung on boxes.

Just because I've been driving without a seat belt for 22 years doesn't make it safe, just because the house didn't burn in the last 22 years doesn't mean that the box is unnecessary.

Sometimes I get thru to HO and other times not.

Another great answer.

also look at 300-15 of the 2008 NEC. Boxes, ConduiBodies,or Fittings- where required.

Thanks but this does not help me explain why it is dangerous to not have a box, only that it is required.

 

[kwired]

also look at 300-15 of the 2008 NEC. Boxes, ConduiBodies,or Fittings- where required.

This is not a great answer (sorry and sort of kidding around). I don't want to tell them just that the box is required, I want to tell them why it is dangerous.

Tell them that the box is required as well as the reasons why.

Fire is the main reason. What if a cat wisker or a wirenut falls off? If there is a fault, sparks will fly at some termination points. Not a good thing to have sparks next to combustables.

I think this is most of the reason why appropriate enclosures are required at any splice or termination, splices and terminations are a possible source of resistance and along with resistance comes heat.

 

[jmellc]

Sad thing is with many lights, box or no box, the wires contact wood or other flammable materials. Canopy fits over light box, joints protrude & often rest against ceiling or wall. A smart customer will know & point this out as he sees you attach to a box. But with a box, less chance of flashback to the attic or wall interior.

I can't tell you how many lights I've seen attached directly to siding or walls.

 

[kwired]

Could you at least put a metal plate on the ceiling behind the fixture to prevent direct contact between conductors and combustibles? Not exactly the right thing to do but better than nothing.

 

[growler]

cut in a pancake box or go home.

That's about the size of it. I don't have to justify the code or even explain it but it's required and I do need to comply with it.

 

[mkgrady]

Could you at least put a metal plate on the ceiling behind the fixture to prevent direct contact between conductors and combustibles? Not exactly the right thing to do but better than nothing.

I could do that but I will not. They are trying to decide if they are going to change out about 200 of these fixtures. I put up two as samples and that's when I found the missing boxes. I just won't do the job if they do not want it done to code.

 

[mkgrady]

That's about the size of it. I don't have to justify the code or even explain it but it's required and I do need to comply with it.

I use pancake boxes sometimes but it seems in an existing installation it would be easier to cut in a round old work box with a hole saw. Or maybe you mean to surface mount the pancake? Seems to me that takes a very deep canopy on the fixture and the ones they want have a shallow canopy.

By the way, is it OK to surface mount a pancake box? I only use them where they are recessed into the wall, screwed to a stud, and flush with the surface.

 

[Ken9876]

I see this often, as outside lights seem to be install by hacks, for some reason. I just give them a price to install one of those nice Arlington siding boxes. Not that long ago I removed a fixture and the white wire snapped off flush with the siding, nothing usually goes as planned.

 

[fisherelectric]

It's pretty simple, really. Just tell them that as a licensed master electrician you have to abide by the NEC and that the NEC is the time tested way to insure the safety of the public, and that non-compliance with the code is what insurance companies use to determine whether a fire claim is legit or not.

 

[George Stolz]

I can explain to the customer the need to have a proper ground on the fixture (so the CB will trip in case of a ground fault) but I am not coming up with much for the lack of a box. The only thing I can come up with is that there is not enough room in the canopy of the fixture to contain the splices. Yet the existing canopies have contained those splices for 22 years. So other than it violates the code, what can I tell them are the hazards of not having the box?

You don't need to explain it in that much depth to the customer. Include all the work required in your bid, but don't give them an opportunity to tell you how to do your job. Don't start the fight, start it on the right note: "Here's what it will cost to do the job right."

 

[220/221]

The purpose of the box is to contain the fire.

I'd tell them I cannot re install then without a box.

 

[growler]

By the way, is it OK to surface mount a pancake box? I only use them where they are recessed into the wall, screwed to a stud, and flush with the surface.

Not really, in many exterior installations to surface mount you would need a weather-proof box but in many cases this can be easier. For things like flood lights I will use a matching color W/P box and the cost is more than offset with the time saved. If it's a covered area with a fixture sconce that's to big for a W/P box then you could surface mount a pancake if the fixture will mount correctly to the ceiling.

If there is room I just push the wires back in the hole and cut out for the box with a hole saw. A times when I can't get the wiring out of the way I use the Roto-zip.

I try to do what ever is easiest, looks the best and is still legal. But you can get away from the fact that a box is required.

I lost a big job at some apartments a couple of years backs because I wanted to do things right. The maintenance chief wanted me to do the work but the management found some unlicensed guys to do what they wanted. After that the maintenance staff spent months repairing all the mistakes made that had already been paid for.

If you don't do the work right when the customer starts to complain later on you can even defend yourself because you did something that you know is wrong.

 

[kwired]

I don't like the idea of installing an open back fixture on combustible material even if there is a proper J box behind it. It still allows the wiring in proximity to the combustible material. I bet if you reasearch hard enough you may find that these fixtures are to be installed on non combustible wall or ceiling finishes