building with no permits

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It's against the Law.

It's against the Law.

Morally it wrong. If we all pick and choose which laws to follow things go to hell in a hurry. Stick to speeding and tearing the tags off mattresses.
 
Winning DUH said:
To the Electrical Inspectors or Fire Marshalls in the crowd:
This guy is going to need an occupancy permit. What does it look like to you, when you do a walk through on a space that has (OBVIOUSLY) been renovated? Then the new tenant says ?oh ya, that?s how it was when we moved in???.?



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My response to a question like that is usually the same, "Please don't treat me like an idiot". Many inspectors live in the towns they work in and have been in every building at least once. Now how big the town is would determine how well you could hide things like this of course.

A story I like to tell happened a few years back.

EC "We just need you to sign off the ceiling, that's all we did"
Me "Before I can do that, who signed off the new wall there and all of that electrical"
"That wall's has always been there"
"one more time, who signed that off"
"I told you that wall has always been there"
"OK, (go to truck get correction notice-Remove all drywall and expose all framing and electrical for inspection-obtain all necessary permits)"
"What have I been telling you"
"I heard what you said (pointing out the window). Do you see that street right there?"
"yes"
"Do you see that house right there?"
"Yes"
"That's where I live. Three days ago these three suites were an auto parts store."
"OK, what happened was....."
"no I gave you a chance to tell me what happened, Now go pay the fines."
 
I am not normally a fan of government intrusion and meddling in the lives of the average citizen, but the potential personal consequences to everyone associated with this mess seems way out of whack with whatever potential benefits there might be.

A gut and start over type job is not a cheap thing in the first place.

There are ways to minimize the negative impact of government meddling, but IMO just ignoring the rules on a project of this scope is not the way to handle it.

I would think someone is going to have to do some pretty serious design work to retask this space anyway. Is any reputable architect going to get involved in such a mess?
 
Why in heck would a real lic electrician even ask such a question?
May as well turn in his lic because it will be gone by the time that mess is done:roll:
 
iwire said:
FWIW the OP has not been back since they posted.
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Typical of a first poster.
What I can't believe is that how many replies a first poster gets when it is obvious that they wont come back or post a question that is unintelligent.

Just look at his login name.
I will bet this was made up and this is a troll.
 
Believe me, I considered that this thread might be a provocation the first time I read it.

Yet, even if you assumed the OP was my evil twin (Now THAT's scary!), the question raised some important issues, in a manner we could develop in a positive way.

After all, who among us has not heard "but no inspector will ever see it?" Or, been asked to, say, "quote a kitchen" without seeing either the plans or the site? Nor should we forget the ways regulations work in negative ways.

Look at the currently active threads. Nearly every one is rooted in the issues raised by this thread - whether it has to do with 'working cheap' or 'how much for.....' Heck, it just might be worthy of a 'sticky' to remain first in front of us every time we wish to discuss contracting.

Take a lesson from "The Hobbit." If it weren't for trolls, no one would need a wizard :)
 
petersonra said:
I am not normally a fan of government intrusion and meddling in the lives of the average citizen
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Requiring a permit is not government intrusion or meddling, The reason cities have an inspection departments is to keep the insurance rates for the city down, towns and cities without inspection departments requiring permits and inspections will pay higher insurance rates on their homes and business
The insurance underwriters rate a community by a number of rules type of water supply, distance to fire services, does the city (government) have an inspection department and many other underwriting requirements
The old thinking of the city just makes inspection laws to make money is just plain nuts
 
satcom said:
Requiring a permit is not government intrusion or meddling, The reason cities have an inspection departments is to keep the insurance rates for the city down, towns and cities without inspection departments requiring permits and inspections will pay higher insurance rates on their homes and business
The insurance underwriters rate a community by a number of rules type of water supply, distance to fire services, does the city (government) have an inspection department and many other underwriting requirements
The old thinking of the city just makes inspection laws to make money is just plain nuts
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Wow someone that actually know's the answer.;)
 
Don't walk away from this job. Run, fast as you can. 1 of my friends took on smaller versions of this kind of thing, for a particular GC. Disaster every time. He fortunately did not get caught, but got burned in various ways. The GC left town in the night.

This kind of job is trouble in all caps. You'll break a sweat any time a city vehicle passes by, customer will constantly push for faster results, will want you to cut all corners, may drag out paying you, may change his mind every 10 minutes on what he wants, etc. The FPE equipment is on borrowed time already. It could well die during the job & it will somehow be your fault "It lasted 75 years, how come it died when you worked on it?" "No one had any trouble with it before." If you finish the job OK, you still have to worry about any possible fire or other disaster. If questions get asked, how long will it take for your name to come up? 10-15 minutes? You don't want that phone call or knock on the door.
 
cowboyjwc said:
My response to a question like that is usually the same, "Please don't treat me like an idiot". Many inspectors live in the towns they work in and have been in every building at least once. Now how big the town is would determine how well you could hide things like this of course.

A story I like to tell happened a few years back.

EC "We just need you to sign off the ceiling, that's all we did"
Me "Before I can do that, who signed off the new wall there and all of that electrical"
"That wall's has always been there"
"one more time, who signed that off"
"I told you that wall has always been there"
"OK, (go to truck get correction notice-Remove all drywall and expose all framing and electrical for inspection-obtain all necessary permits)"
"What have I been telling you"
"I heard what you said (pointing out the window). Do you see that street right there?"
"yes"
"Do you see that house right there?"
"Yes"
"That's where I live. Three days ago these three suites were an auto parts store."
"OK, what happened was....."
"no I gave you a chance to tell me what happened, Now go pay the fines."
Click to expand...

Reminds me of a friend of mine, working hard to cut a ground rod before inspection. Someone came by to chat. After a minute, friend got irritated. "Look, I can't talk to you. I have to get this ground rod cut before the inspector gets here." Guy said, "OK, sorry" & walked off. Came around other side of house & said "John Smith, new inspector, are you ready for inspection?"
 
jmellc said:
Reminds me of a friend of mine, working hard to cut a ground rod before inspection. Someone came by to chat. After a minute, friend got irritated. "Look, I can't talk to you. I have to get this ground rod cut before the inspector gets here." Guy said, "OK, sorry" & walked off. Came around other side of house & said "John Smith, new inspector, are you ready for inspection?"
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"know who you're talking to.":roll:

I have a similar story that I'll relate some other time.;)
 
cowboyjwc said:
"know who you're talking to.":roll:

I have a similar story that I'll relate some other time.;)
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Ground rods have long been a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of issue. My most treasured power tool is my DeWalt ground rod driver. 2-3 minutes has been its longest time to drive a 5/8 rod, in rocky soil. Usually a minute or less.
 
I guess we all have different ideas as to what constitutes 'rocky' soil.

I don't think I've EVER had a ground rod take less than a half-hour to pound in - and that's using a 35# Makita jackhammer - not a puny rotohammer or demolition hammer. Heck, I even had the driving attachment break one time.
 
renosteinke said:
I guess we all have different ideas as to what constitutes 'rocky' soil.

I don't think I've EVER had a ground rod take less than a half-hour to pound in - and that's using a 35# Makita jackhammer - not a puny rotohammer or demolition hammer. Heck, I even had the driving attachment break one time.
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Yes, what is his idea of rocky soil, even beach sand can take some time to set a rod but in rock or even bank run soil can take a few hours to a day and if it is mountain rock then bring out the blasting caps of the thousands of rods we drove I only recall a few that took minutes and one of them was in quick sand near a sand pit maint yard
 
Thanks!!

Thanks!!

Folk?s thank you for all the replies, I read every one of them. Thank you very much.

I tried to explain to the customer that building codes were based off of science and not just some ?silly? rule.

Also explained that the customer could get hurt money wise if a cease and desist was issued and the move of his business could be delayed. That could turn into a big deal if he has to be out of one space but can?t move into the new space because no occupancy permit was issued for the new space. BIG DEAL!!! HUGE!!!

Lastly that the customer could also have problems with the bank that owns the property, you can?t knock down walls and alter real estate with, no permits, in a space you don?t own!! Seriously.

But you really can?t tell people anything; these people are dead set on building without prints or permit. I have to say that I find it a little odd that an ?insurance? company would do this but whatever.

It would be cheaper to have prints and a permit, make a schedule, set expectations of contractors, and move ?peacefully?.
 
Winning DUH said:
Folk?s thank you for all the replies, I read every one of them. Thank you very much.

I tried to explain to the customer that building codes were based off of science and not just some ?silly? rule.

Also explained that the customer could get hurt money wise if a cease and desist was issued and the move of his business could be delayed. That could turn into a big deal if he has to be out of one space but can?t move into the new space because no occupancy permit was issued for the new space. BIG DEAL!!! HUGE!!!

Lastly that the customer could also have problems with the bank that owns the property, you can?t knock down walls and alter real estate with, no permits, in a space you don?t own!! Seriously.

But you really can?t tell people anything; these people are dead set on building without prints or permit. I have to say that I find it a little odd that an ?insurance? company would do this but whatever.

It would be cheaper to have prints and a permit, make a schedule, set expectations of contractors, and move ?peacefully?.
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Keep us up on this; I'd love to hear how it turns out. I used to work for an insurance co. I'll bet anything the co. being represented knows nothing about the building. The people you see are probably local agents & they probably told the co they are simply moving to a new building. A smart underwriter at the co. may ask the right questions about it, if it ever comes to his attention. Insurance people should know better, but the obsession to save money can override good sense any day.

If it goes on as they plan, some kind of fiasco is almost guaranteed.
 
A lot of work goes un-permitted and even under the nose of the AHJ.
These folks think that the AHJ is underpaid and understaffed and just do not have the time to deal with it.
I see it all the time.
 
certficate of occupancy. That where the would catch you here, you cant turn a payday loan into a insurance agency ECT. the C/o has has to be for your buisness type only. the fire marshall comes twice a year here.

Also you cant just change over the electrical service account either, you have to apply for the C/O for YOUR business to get electrical service.
 
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