building with no permits

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mlnk said:
They have 50 work stations and they are too broke to get their office wired?
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I could understand if it was a small office with just a few people. but a project this large is not going to go well without some serious professional work up front, and along the way, and it is going to be hard to avoid getting permits and inspections on something of this scale if the pros are involved.

In a lot of areas the city officials seem to have taken a 'don't look, don't see" approach to these kind of things in these rough times, which for small projects seems to me to make a lot of sense. Other places are just hammering these kind of projects, likely because there is not much else to do.
 
ceb58 said:
All of the above.
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it's much worse than all of that..... after your wife elopes with
your girlfriend, your dog bites you, and you are forced to crawl
naked and bleeding across a hostile landscape towards a shallow
grave, we'll all say.... "toldja...."

what'll happen, is you will get red tagged, the city will have the
poco kill the service, and worst of all, there won't be any more
checks from the customer, when they find out how bad it's gonna
get for them.....

for the dramatic version, with color 8x10 glossy photos, with circles,
arrows, and a paragraph on the back explaining every one.... see
my post here.....

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php/136220-Owner-doesn-t-want-permits/page5

note this key phrase:
"when it turns to poo, and it will, they won't give you any more money"
 
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mlnk said:
They have 50 work stations and they are too broke to get their office wired?
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More of a greed thing, really. I don?t get it.

I heard that the only market in commercial real-estate rentals is sub-leasing. I understand sub-leasing to be a penny on the dollar thing. So why they don?t do something like that.

I know a different guy who got 8 months free rent between moving out of one place and moving into the next, and he was renting over 40,000sqft. So greed.
 
Fulthrotl said:
"toldja...."

what'll happen, is you will get red tagged, the city will have the
poco kill the service, and worst of all, there won't be any more
checks from the customer, when they find out how bad it's gonna
get for them.....

"
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And I am guessing, that because this is a multi unit building that POCO would/could disconnect service at the pole? Right? Until POCO and the village figure out what is going on. After a few days they might let the other tenants back in, I never thought about that. And who would be financially responsible for the loss of business to the other tenets? How do you tell employees that they have to sit at home with no pay because there new neighbor wanted to save a buck?????.
 
Fulthrotl wrote:

yada, yada, yada.... he blew it off, and spent three MONTHS doing this thing,
without getting caught.... until one day

the resulting "code enforcement exercise" performed on the property owner
cost him about $140,000 he didn't intend to spend, with almost $40k of that
being bringing the electrical up to code.

all the can lights he put in the ceiling were incandescent, and that tipped the
remodeled load over the original permitted load, bring the entire structure
into question for title 24 compliance.... glazing, insulation, everything.....

not to mention handicapped access.....


Can anybody else give details like the above? For example how many sqft, how much additional cost to the owner, how much time, inconvenience, or loss of business, and additional stress.
 
jmellc said:
Keep us up on this; I'd love to hear how it turns out. I used to work for an insurance co. I'll bet anything the co. being represented knows nothing about the building. The people you see are probably local agents & they probably told the co they are simply moving to a new building. A smart underwriter at the co. may ask the right questions about it, if it ever comes to his attention. Insurance people should know better, but the obsession to save money can override good sense any day.
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jmellc said:

If it goes on as they plan, some kind of fiasco is almost guaranteed.
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Wow!! what you are saying is that the ?new space? with all the work being done would change the amount the property owner would pay the property insurance company because the new tenant changed everything without a permit. Change the "risk" catagory of the building. Of course now none of this was discussed so now the property owner sues the new renter for his loss.

Right, and the property owner?s lawyer says that the new tenet has to put everything back the way it was or pay the additional cost/costs. Again because nothing was in writing.

Wow.................UNREAL
 
Winning DUH said:
Fulthrotl wrote:

yada, yada, yada.... he blew it off, and spent three MONTHS doing this thing,
without getting caught.... until one day

the resulting "code enforcement exercise" performed on the property owner
cost him about $140,000 he didn't intend to spend, with almost $40k of that
being bringing the electrical up to code.

all the can lights he put in the ceiling were incandescent, and that tipped the
remodeled load over the original permitted load, bring the entire structure
into question for title 24 compliance.... glazing, insulation, everything.....

not to mention handicapped access.....


Can anybody else give details like the above? For example how many sqft, how much additional cost to the owner, how much time, inconvenience, or loss of business, and additional stress.
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a guy i've done work for, really neat guy, commercial plumbing contractor,
has a secondary business in the same city he lives in, not his plumbing
business, but an auto racing deal..... he put a storage mezzanine in the
back of the shop, for parts... didn't pull a permit.... at the same time,
he was renovating his home, and pulled out the free standing staircase,
to replace it, again.... no permit. very solidly built, but no ticket.

he got caught for both, in the same week, by the same inspector. both
totally random..... when the inspectors here don't have open tickets to
inspect, they cruise around.... looking.

he became their chew toy.... i got called to sort the electrical in the
auto racing shop, and the electrical inspector was looking to reclassify
the back half of the shop class 1 division 1, cause of his interpretation
of the occupancy. i did a full audit on the shop, with load calcs,
engineered drawings, etc.

the cl1 div.1 didn't happen, but after a year, after the fact engineered
drawings for the mezzanine were generated, and after all the hoops
had been jumped thru, they still made him tear down the mezzanine.

the staircase at his house? don't ask.


randy
 
renosteinke said:
I guess we all have different ideas as to what constitutes 'rocky' soil.

I don't think I've EVER had a ground rod take less than a half-hour to pound in - and that's using a 35# Makita jackhammer - not a puny rotohammer or demolition hammer. Heck, I even had the driving attachment break one time.
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Sounds like you are on a rock shield. I grew up in eastern North Carolina, with mostly sandy soil. Not much rock, patches of clay here & there. In the sandy soil, I could sometimes drive a rod with a 2 pound hammer, easily. In clay patches, used an 8 to 12 pound sledge hammer.

I live in central NC now, nearly all areas here are red clay, with various degrees of rock, small and large. Sometimes clay with a layer of topsoil over. I used to use a 20-30 pound rotary hammer drill with driver attachment. It got to where it wouldn't drive some places. My DeWalt has so far defeated all the locations. At worst, it took a few minutes. Usually a minute or so will do it. It weighs about 50 pounds, is the size of a jack hammer. It also has a chisel blade. I could use it to break concrete or rock if needed.
 
Working without a permit

Working without a permit

With "Friends of the family" like that, you don't need enemies!

If the job goes sour, for any of a hundred reasons, all beyond your control, you will be ruined, both in terms of money and reputation.

Most inspectors I know try to develop a relationship of trust with contractors. How many inspectors will ever trust you again for ANYTHING?

Those "Friends aren't worth it. Tell them "Thanks, but no thanks".

- from an inspector
 
I have seen this before..... When the job is done.... Consequences...

I have seen this before..... When the job is done.... Consequences...

Winning DUH said:
My question is:
?what are the consequences of doing a 6000 sqft, total gut, commercial remodel, everything new except the electrical service, without any permits!!???

Here is some back ground:
?Friend? of the family. It is an existing business of 20 years. Insurance agency. Now they want to move to a new location. About fifty work stations, server room, new space is ~6000sqft. The space is located in a building from the 1970?s with five other commercial tenets. The new space is being fed from an old (OLD) FPE main distribution panel. Each tenet space has two- 100amp panels and one sixty amp panel. HVAC is by the building and not part of this project.

I took an amp meter over to the existing location (3phase) to check out the load during normal business hours. So when they are all moved into the new location (single phase) each of the two- 100amp panels will have 70amps per phase, and that?s before space heaters and whatever new office equipment comes with the move. So the service is overloaded from the get go.
The new 6000sqft space was an office, then a church, then office again, and then different office again. So tons of violations and shoddy looking work, no exit signs, no fire alarm, or sprinklers.



I am looking for consequences in regards to fines or penalties on my electrical license. What really happens if you get caught doing a 6000sqft job with no drawings, load calculations, or permits?

If I don?t get caught in the act of doing the work, what are the consequences of overloading the electrical service later, say a year from now? By this I mean overloading the FPE ? MDP, interruption of daily business operations, cost of fixing/replacing the MDP, and upsetting the other tenets. Not to mention applying for that permit and trying to explain all the new work that happened in the space.



To the Electrical Inspectors or Fire Marshalls in the crowd:
This guy is going to need an occupancy permit. What does it look like to you, when you do a walk through on a space that has (OBVIOUSLY) been renovated? Then the new tenant says ?oh ya, that?s how it was when we moved in???.?



Also the personal liability to me, what about that? If I am doing ?cash? work and somebody gets hurt on the job or later something burns and the job went down outside of the protection of my corporation, who pays? Me personally, my personal house, my personal assets? No money paid in to the corporations bank account means no protection on workman?s comp/business liability? yes/no?




Last but not least, the job is to going from start to finish in one month. The business must move out of the existing space by a certain date. The renovation construction work in the new space can?t start any earlier than 30 days due to the businesses leases. What could go wrong here?

What happens if the tenet gets busted doing work with no permit half way through the job? Say the job get?s shut down, then goes in for permits, all the wasted time. All that has a monetary cost to the business and also would be very disruptive.


I am looking for reasons why doing work with no permits is a bad idea.

That?s a big deal moving a functioning business.

What are all the liabilities associated with doing work with no permits?
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Our local inspectors will make everyone involved remove the drywall and related devices so proper rough in inspections can be done... Very costly for everyone... I do not think this is a smart business move... Now you are on the local (AHJ) watch list....
 
mhockenberry said:
Our local inspectors will make everyone involved remove the drywall and related devices so proper rough in inspections can be done... Very costly for everyone... I do not think this is a smart business move... Now you are on the local (AHJ) watch list....
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When anyone operates illegal there will always be problems, we get plenty of calls from people that say all they need is an electrician to get a permit and, say the wiring is ok.

We went to look at one of these disasters, and found the so called GC did the basement for cash, and told then he never gets permits, and does plenty of work in the area, so everything seemed fine the basement looked beautiful and everything appeared to work, I even thought the job looked really good, and it had a lot of expensive material installed, and everything was fine until his job moved and he had to put the home up for sale, and even then he found a buyer willing to pay his price, only one problem, when the people buyinf the home had a home inspection done the basement failed the inspection for a few minor problems, that is when the new owner to be discovered there was no permits or inspections for the new $140K basement, so after the owner tried without luck to find some dummies that would sign off the non permitted work, the city moved to have the entire basement job demo or vacate the property, so they got some large dumpsters and had the illegal work removed and put in the dumpsters, and had to reduce the price of the home, plus take the loss of the illegal work. It was a real learning experience.
 
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