Everyone is an electrician

[satcom]

You're right Bob. Sorry to drift off on a tangent. So, getting back on topic - to date whenever a plumber or HVAC guy has had to replace a boiler or A/C unit it's been acceptable for them to disconnect and reconnect AC power. Now, I've heard that both the plumbers and HVAC associations are lobbying the State of NJ and are asking to be allowed to install wiring pertaining to their specific units. I can't imagine what the repercussions of this will be.

Ironic you mentioned the lobbying the State, Goldstar is one of the mechanical contractors
That does the plumbing, HVAC, electrical, they would be able to reduce their electrical crew and have the HVAC and Plumbing guys do the electrical

 

[goldstar]

Ironic you mentioned the lobbying the State, Goldstar is one of the mechanical contractors
That does the plumbing, HVAC, electrical, they would be able to reduce their electrical crew and have the HVAC and Plumbing guys do the electrical

Ironic - yes but no relation. AND I don't have Korean ancestry nor do I manufacture electronic equipment.

 

[kiddrock]

Sorry guys, I have been away for a few days, but I am the person that originally posted this thread and I just wanted to clarify a few things. My biggest concern is other licensed contractors of their particular trade doing electrical work without an electrical contractors license (which means a master Electrician card holder has to be employed). These guys are raking in big bucks and most of them doing a dangerous install. I've read most of the reply posts and some I agree with and some I don't. Maybe we as EC's ought to be the ones doing the lobbying that we are licensed to do in the first place

 

[brantmacga]

i didn't read past the first post, but in the state of GA, a licensed hvac contractor is allowed to install any wiring associated with their system, including new circuits from the service. it could be the same in some other states.

 

[knoppdude]

Indeed everyone is an electrician. I had a long ago potential customer actually design the work he wanted done, including placing his electrical panel behind a 24 inch deep closet. I could tell he was highly intelligent, and knew more about the trade than the average electrician, so I let him use someone else, who ironically turned him down as well. I think he ended up wiring the building himself, and I bet he did a bang up job of it too.

 

[daiashi]

Well im going ahead and chime in to.It didnt bother me as much before I was licensed but after spending a crap load of money for class and license and time
and stress and stress and stress to pass my unlimted in NC,I have become a lot more aware and have erased with my hand on the white board at a local HD that
a ex inspector and licensed ele,who continually teaches load calc.and such to the public.Maybe im wrong Idk but its not right to me.It makes folks think that after
a 15 minute crash course that they know all there is to know about wiring.So
mr. handy man get a little workers comp and a little liability and takes our work
from us.Yes im ticked.

 

[Electric-Light]

i didn't read past the first post, but in the state of GA, a licensed hvac contractor is allowed to install any wiring associated with their system, including new circuits from the service. it could be the same in some other states.

So they can pull a new circuit, install disconnect & OCP device, and hook up a 3ph 4160v chiller?

 

[jmellc]

So they can pull a new circuit, install disconnect & OCP device, and hook up a 3ph 4160v chiller?

In NC, other contractors can get limited scope licenses. Generally, they can connect from our disconnect to their HVAC or plumbing equipment, etc. They can do any internal electrical work on their equipment too. They cannot run a circuit from the panel or extend a circuit further out. Plumbers most often replace heating elements & thermostats in water heaters in my area.

 

[jmellc]

While I hate the competition, I am also a libertarian by nature & frown on forbidding a person to do his own work. My bigger gripe is that many do frightfully dangerous work and pat themselves on the back. Twice I've seen homeowners connect a live conductor to a grounding terminal. In one case, it energized the faucet water flowing into a metal sink. In another case, a metal switch plate shocked me when I came in with one hand on the wet storm door & touched the metal plate while hitting a switch.

My biggest complaint is handymen, illegals, etc. that present themselves as electricians and do sloppy and dangerous work. Receptacles tapped from 50 amp range outlets with 14/2, tapped from 90 amp AHU's with 14 or 12/2, live open wiring in wet crawl space, etc. Disasters waiting to happen.

Someone recently called me about some slop a previous owner had done in the shed. Complained they had to fix lots of junk jobs he did. I quoted a price to fix wiring properly & she balked; wanted a "quick cheap fix". Exactly how it all happened in the 1st place.

 

[kiddrock]

Indeed everyone is an electrician. I had a long ago potential customer actually design the work he wanted done, including placing his electrical panel behind a 24 inch deep closet. I could tell he was highly intelligent, and knew more about the trade than the average electrician, so I let him use someone else, who ironically turned him down as well. I think he ended up wiring the building himself, and I bet he did a bang up job of it too.

What exactly are you trying to say? Did the guy do a good job or a bad job? Sorry for being confused.

 

[Fulthrotl]

How come the most potentially dangerous trade is the trade that unqualified and unlicensed people are so eager to put there hands on? I'm speaking of HVAC guys, Plumbers, handymen, homeowners ect. My biggest beef is with HVAC and handymen(yes you can get an uppercase H when you get licensed). I don't think we as Ec's really realize how much work these unlicensed people are doing. Most of the work that Iv'e seen by this kind has not been code compliant and at the least very dangerous for the customer. What say you?

well, this is a good thread for ranting, and we can all vent our spleen, and
as it seems there about 5 pages of vents, i'd say this has been therapeautic... ;-)

i got three emails from the californicate state license board today. they are
doing stings on people, and taking them to court. it looks like this:

================================

Two Repeat Offenders Among 10 Nabbed in Chico Sting
Jail time a possibility for contracting without a license

SACRAMENTO ? Ten illegal operators are headed to court next month following a Contractors State License Board undercover sting operation conducted at a Chico home on April 14, 2011, with investigators from the Butte County District Attorney?s Office.
CSLB investigators posed as property owners, inviting suspected illegal operators to bid on home improvement projects such as concrete, landscaping, fencing, painting, and tree trimming. Those who bid more than $500 received notices to appear in court for contracting without a license. California law requires that all home improvement projects valued at more than $500 for labor and materials be performed by a licensed contractor.
Some suspects are facing additional charges for illegal advertising and soliciting excessive down payments. State law requires that contractor license numbers be in all advertisements. Those who are not licensed may perform work valued at less than $500, but their ads must state that they are not a licensed contractor. Contractors are also prohibited by law from soliciting a down payment larger than $1,000 or 10 percent of the contract price, whichever is less.
This is not the first time Thomas Christopher Chadwick, 38, of Bangor, and Alvaro Barajas Garcia, 45, of Chico, have been caught in a CSLB sting. Both were issued notices to appear during a September 14, 2010 operation at a Chico mobile home park. Garcia pleaded guilty and was fined $1,010 for contracting without a license. Chadwick pleaded not guilty and is set for trial on one count of contracting without a license on June 20, 2011. Garcia and Barajas are now charged for a second offense which carries a penalty of up to $5,000 and at least 90 days in county jail.
?This sting should serve as notice that CSLB and its partners are serious about cracking down on illegal contracting activity in Butte County,? said Registrar Steve Sands.
In addition to the suspects caught in the sting operation, CSLB and the DA?s office will conduct follow-up investigations on at least two licensed contractors who are suspected of having employees who are not covered by workers? compensation insurance. Contractors are legally required to purchase workers? comp coverage for all employees to protect homeowners from liability if a worker is injured on their property.
?The Butte County District Attorney?s Office welcomes the opportunity to work with agencies like CSLB to ensure compliance with our state?s consumer protection laws,? said Butte County District Attorney Mike Ramsey. ?It is also critical that Butte County contractors who provide good jobs and pay their proper taxes and insurance are not put at a competitive disadvantage by these illegal operators.?
The following suspects who received notices to appear are scheduled for arraignment on May 13, 2011, at 8:30 a.m. in Butte County Superior Court in Oroville:
SUSPECT NAMES AND CITY OF RESIDENCE AGE WORK CLASS VIOLATIONS

Robert Charles Forcinio
Oroville 57 Cement Contracting without a license, soliciting excessive down payment
Joey L. Perkins
Oroville 41 Tree Services Contracting without a license, illegal advertising
Phillip Damian Schmidt
Chico 57 Painting Contracting without a license
Jeffrey Alan Woodward
Oroville 42 Painting Contracting without a license
Christian Stephen Kozak
Paradise 25 Tree Services Contracting without a license, illegal advertising
Thomas Christopher Chadwick
Bangor 38 Fencing Contracting without a license (second offense)
Rickey Adam Venard
Magalia 33 Fencing Contracting without a license
Alvaro Barajas Garcia
Chico 45 Landscaping Contracting without a license (second offense), illegal advertising
Ciro Alberto Sanchez
Chico 41 Landscaping Contracting without a license, illegal advertising, soliciting excessive down payment
Roger Glenn Schulte Jr.
Gridley 39 Fencing Contracting without a license
=====================

are they concerned with their civic duties as guardians of the welfare of
the people of the fine state of californicate?

are they trying to shake the bushes to get some more license money?

 

[Bronco25]

As a Maintenance Electrician with years of experience I can tell you that I have dismissed several 'Industrial Electricians' who couldn't cut it.

My crew is all liscensed and up to date on CEUs and training, even though its not required in my state. I know hack plumbers, carpenters, every trade has their share and their own issues. And there are some very smart people here that I can't hold a candle to, but I don't think that makes me any less an electrician.
I am aware of my limitations.

Actually when you paint with that broad of a brush, it's kinda hard not to get any on yourself.

Sorry, rant over. No offense intended.

Nice to know there is an exception out there. I will wear the dagger proudly. Unfortunately, the rule is far larger than the exception. And yes, there are some "Industrial Electricians" who should be sent to Hollywood to make grade B movies. And by the way, I don't do residential because I that is not my area.

 

[__dan]

I like installing high efficiency boilers but do it only for family because of the no license. Would like to have an S 1.

Just hit the spring sale, this: http://www.woodboilers.com/admin/uploads/public/SS 2011 Flyer - General_LowRes(1).pdf and have the FHG L 20 in the truck. 1200 lbs to put in the basement, trim, and my fuel consumption for oil heat will go to zero feeding this 3 - 4 tons of biobricks or dry cord wood.

I had scribbled the plumbing circuits months ago. I'm using the basement radiant slab for storage with the option for a storage tank in the future, no idling, smaller burns. Manufactiurer says use storage. Equipment rep saleguys were great, they wanted to make the sale and move it. I've done so much work on boilers, I hope I know what I'm doing.

 

[Leestarkweather]

Electric Shower?

Electric Shower?

Gents,

If its any comfort, we have exactly the same problems this side of the pond.
Plumbers who think that they are 'qualified' to change an electric shower in the bathroom without filling in any paper work or completing any testing.

Adrian

I thought I loved all things electric, but where can I go to try (see how long I can stand under the flow!) an electric shower?

 

[stevebea]

I thought I loved all things electric, but where can I go to try (see how long I can stand under the flow!) an electric shower?

I never heard of electric shower either until I googled "electric shower".

 

[jmellc]

I saw were a handy man ran 3 x thhn #12's, to new fans mounted without boxes ,5 of em, in a house. I found out when he had me fixing the bell line for the new storm door he was installing. I literally tripped over em in the attic. They wrapped around my feet and legs. He got the wire cut at the local big box store, they went in like a spring. Then he put new insulation over them and called me to fix the door bell.

It was being paid for by the local Gov weatherizing program. The locals that issue permits and do the inspections. No permits or inspections for the handy man, I had to pull one for the dryer plug I moved over 2 feet. Last one I did for that program.

When you see these things, do what I do. Beat your head against a wall for 10 minutes. It will feel so good when you stop, you won't remember what upset you.

 

[mlnk]

In my state and most of the tri state area the card must be posted in plain view
We had a problem on one project where the card fell from plain view and in less then an hour we had the police arrive with the AHJ so yes every area may have different requirements on display but in these parts they are on display

In my town you need to have a permit on the city computer. We can get permits online for jobs not needing plans.

 

[iaov]

This is one of my pet peeves and I have ranted on this forum about it before. It seems anyone who has twisted two speaker wires together thinks they are an electrician. I am amazed at what geniuses there are in this world. What has taken me thirty years to learn (and I still learn every day), they have been able to learn in 15 minutes and never had to leave thier barstools.....90% of the time our job is not rocket science, but man are we ever under paid for that remaing 10%!!!

 

[dexterg]

Homeowner just created another hazardous installation......

Homeowner just created another hazardous installation......

The way I see it, it's all about $$$. You know - us electricians get paid in gold bullion. At least that's the word going around. God forbid someone should pay us to do a job right and code compliant. With the national economy on a downgrade you'll see more and more homeowners looking to save a buck and will try doing their own electrical work or repairs. Hopefully, it won't be at the expense of burning down their houses or putting themselves or their families in a perilous situation.

I just saw a wiring display at HD the other day, RX cable all stapled nice and neat with JB's showing how to wire s/p, 3-way and 4-way switches, receptacles and GFI's. Next they'll be showing people how to do service upgrades and work live !!! It's only a matter of time.

I gave a guy an price on replacing a 50 amp underground line to his work shop that had gone bad. Told him how it would be installed per NEC and explained everything had to be permitted and inspected and we would do the work in 2 weeks. I might add the original wire to the shed was #8 triplex ran through his attice then direct buried to the shed, all of which are violations. He said he really didn't want a permit but to proceed. When we go back 2 weeks later to do the work, he lies to us and says he has decided to hold off because he can't afford it right now. I caught him lieing red handed. He didn't know I had seen him digging the trench the week before. He said he did it himself and got another "licensed" electrician to hook it up. At least it appears to be in pvc now, but let me add that he didnt run it all the way back to the panel in the garage, he hooked it back up to the triplex in the attic. He pulled 10-2 romex w/g in the pvc, another violation, not to mention the lack of a 4 wire feeder. I bet he left the 50 amp breaker on the triplex that feeds it too.
This man was a retired Lt Colonel who had the resources to pay to have it done correctly, but chose not too. Good riddance. I don't ever want to hear from him again. I just hope he has working smoke detectors.

 

[renosteinke]

Dexterg, you bring up a tangent worthy of its' own thread: Just where is the line to be drawn, between fully explaining to the customer what your plan is, and giving the customer 'instructions?'

I was quite upset the first time I designed, bid, and explained a potential job .... only to have the CUSStomer use my explanations to approach another EC. By saying the 'right' things, the other EC was given incomplete information, and was able to greatly reduce the cost of the job. That is, I taught the CUSStomer what lies to tell the other EC.

You're right, though. In the balance, we're probably better off not dealing with such skunks.