Free Power From the Sun

[Ken9876]

You get my vote!

So it is the biggest Government supported scam that exist,out of YOUR tax $-s.

Funny the same could be said about the tax dollars used to build nuke plants

 

[arnettda]

I am no expert on solar power and I'm not even a student of it. I really know very little about it. I do have the impression that in its current form it is a waste of money if your goal is to reduce your electricity costs. Does anybody disagree?

I realize to improve the technology there has to be a market for solar and that market exists because governments are willing to provide tax credits to those that install solar systems. But it seems like with the current technology there is never a return on investment. I have heard calculations on a particular system that would pay for itself in 20 years and then the power is free. Does anybody believe this?



I'm thinking about the costs that typically don't come to mind when people do the math. For instance, if the roof is only going to last 20 years, what about the cost of replacing a roof with all those panels sitting on top. If you were to have a battery connected to store power, I would imagine the batteries would have to be replaced every few years. Maintenance costs seem like a real unknown. And if the system has a break even cost after 20 years, 20 years from now you will probably have already replaced the system with something more effecient, so you never realize the pay back. Even inflation and the time value of money should be considered in the analysis. For instance, if I invest 20K in a solar system and the payback is 20 years, I should compare that investment with putting 20K in a mutual fund investment that would likely quadruple in 20 years (using 7% gaine per year).

For all of the above reasons I have real doubts about solar having any real value in its present form. If my ignorance of solar is showing please let me know what I don't know.

In A roof mounted system when the shingles get bad you can take down the panels, replace the roof and reinstall the panels.
I have a 2.8 KW system that does save me money every month off of my electrical bill. We actually make all of the electricity we use. Still pay back time is a long way out.
We also just bought a new car. Paid about the same price as our solar system. We have filled it up twice. All I have done to our solar system is grease it. Why does there need to be a return on investment in a solar system? My solar panels even have a longer warranty than our car.
I also agree with others that only if you really need battery's should you use them. As well as passive solar is a great resource. It is sad when you see a brand new house facing north with not a single window on the south side.

 

[curt swartz]

Why does there need to be a return on investment in a solar system?

Why spend money on something if you don't benefit from it? If you just want to spend money why not donate it to a good cause?

 

[drive1968]

<<Funny the same could be said about the tax dollars used to build nuke plants>>

On the contrary. The federal government and most state governments have been putting up regulatory roadblocks for several decades on new and existing nuclear plants. The disincentives have resulted in hardly any new plants being built in the last 30 years. The opposite is true regarding solar, which has been heavily subsidized for the last ten years and would hardly exist if not for ratepayer and taxpayer funds.

 

[K8MHZ]

I beg of you to come up with viable reasons to employ solar and wind power generation, especially in a grid tied configuration.

Beside the fact that I am going to attend a class at our local college for installation of such devices, I think that it's good for the environment not to have to spew noxious gasses into the atmosphere to provide our energy needs.

Oh, and in the wake of said viable reasons I hope you manage to sell hundreds or thousands of the systems so I may have a shot at getting back into the trade. Journeymen are a dime a dozen here and most will pull rope at a wage I consider an insult to my training and experience.

I also think that solar and wind power has an optimistic coolness about it that is being overlooked for marketing purposes for some reason.

Every kWh we get without feeding the obscenely profitable corporate energy machine the better. For all of us. Baby harp seals included.

 

[curt swartz]

I would still like to know where photovoltaic panels come from. Do they just appear out of nowhere? Every time I question the sales people about the amount of electricity and hazardous chemicals used to make the panels they don't want to hear it. They claim their product is 100% clean which can't be further than the truth. I personally think photovoltaic sales people are some of the most dishonest people out there.

 

[Fulthrotl]

For all of the above reasons I have real doubts about solar having any real value in its present form. If my ignorance of solar is showing please let me know what I don't know.

pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.....

and i don't think you have missed much.... except in the title....

"free power from the sun"....

there is no free lunch.... start with the energy needed to fabricate the
pv cells, and pull that right off the top....

the only way it survives is with crop subsidies.. and that means everyone
paying taxes pays for it....

now, if i'm gonna put stuff on the roof, it won't be PV cells, as much as
i like those sexy blue tiles that are PV.... i've looked into doing an esthetically
pleasing install, and the only way i'd do it is with a reroof. i'd want a nice new
layer of glace bitchathane underneath those tiles....

what i am looking at, is an algae system to produce lipid oil, which can be used
in place of #2 diesel, thank you... the back half of my roof has the correct exposure,
and is not visible, so it won't look uglier than a mud fence.... the technology is just
emerging on this, so i'm gonna start looking seriously in about a year or so.
if it's possible to get 5-6 gallons a day of oil, i'll do it in a heartbeat... at current
market prices for diesel, that is $150 a week.... which is a lot more than my
electric bill.

PV's are politically correct, and not viable from an engineering standpoint.... that
is my read on it, and a year and a half ago, i did the USGBC LEED AP test, and
got the certification, so i know what the flavor of the cool aid over there tastes like.


randy

 

[mivey]

I have a 2.8 KW system that does save me money every month off of my electrical bill. We actually make all of the electricity we use. Still pay back time is a long way out.

What electric bill? If you actually make all the electricity you use you would not have an electric bill.

 

[mivey]

On the contrary. The federal government and most state governments have been putting up regulatory roadblocks for several decades on new and existing nuclear plants. The disincentives have resulted in hardly any new plants being built in the last 30 years.

In the past that has been true. They were making up the rules as we went along. Most of the opposition was because of fear-mongering by environmentalists. Not the environmentalists have softened on nuclear as people have begun to understand the facts about nuclear.

The government is actually removing roadblocks and encouraging nuclear plant construction. We are getting one of the first ones in years here in Georgia and there were government programs to help reduce the cost.

The opposite is true regarding solar, which has been heavily subsidized for the last ten years and would hardly exist if not for ratepayer and taxpayer funds.

Amen to that.

 

[mivey]

I beg of you to come up with viable reasons to employ solar and wind power generation, especially in a grid tied configuration.

Beside the fact that I am going to attend a class at our local college for installation of such devices, I think that it's good for the environment not to have to spew noxious gasses into the atmosphere to provide our energy needs.

Oh, and in the wake of said viable reasons I hope you manage to sell hundreds or thousands of the systems so I may have a shot at getting back into the trade. Journeymen are a dime a dozen here and most will pull rope at a wage I consider an insult to my training and experience.

I also think that solar and wind power has an optimistic coolness about it that is being overlooked for marketing purposes for some reason.

Every kWh we get without feeding the obscenely profitable corporate energy machine the better. For all of us. Baby harp seals included.

If people are so worried about spewing and such then they should just quit using electricity and go back to being a true environmentalist and live like the Native Americans used to.

To live like we do in a modern age we will negatively affect the environment, no two ways about it. We live by economics and can't survive using only the pie-in-the-sky technologies. We constantly have to choose between cost and the damage we cause. Much like we choose in the electric world between cost and how safe we can make electricity use.

The only way to survive and be the most friendly to the environment is if everybody does it or you will die an economic death. The simple fact is that everybody will not do it so we are stuck with being as environmentally friendly as our pocketbook and conscious can bear.

You can only be the 800 pound gorilla in the room for so long when you are being covered over by army ants. The up and coming industrial societies that don't care about the environment are eating our lunch and buying us lock, stock, and barrel.

 

[iwire]

The up and coming industrial societies that don't care about the environment are eating our lunch and buying us lock, stock, and barrel.

I can't get too political here but the above is the root cause of many of our economic problems we face here in the US.

 

[sameguy]

Where are most of the cells made? China by slaves, then dump the waste into?
In the U.S.A. we have to do it clean and pay people!
In Oswego N.Y. we have 3 nukes now and said great to an other but Constilation Energy will build one in its' home state then here; or not due to being in the middle of a sale right now.
If we need so much elec. could some one tell me why here, Central N.Y. most of our hydros are off, 2 ng cogens off, 1 ng cogen removed?

 

[mivey]

Where are most of the cells made? China by slaves, then dump the waste into?
In the U.S.A. we have to do it clean and pay people!

It is smart on their part as long as they do no fear we will not pay our debt. Why spend money on the environment when you can take that same money and buy the U.S.A.? Let the us clean up the environment while China sells us products made with little concern for the environment. It is the biggest scam in the world. They are buying us with our own money.

What we should do is say: thank you very much for the loans but we are going to apply that to-wards your environmental cost allocation that we have already funded. :grin:

 

[weressl]

Funny the same could be said about the tax dollars used to build nuke plants

Could if it were true, alas it isn't and it wasn't unless you count the Governmental monitoring agencies - which were imposed by the Goivernment - operating cost. Wait, they charge the Utilities for that....

 

[G0049]

He Got it Right

He Got it Right

and i don't think you have missed much.... except in the title....

"free power from the sun"....

Not quite. He got it right. All power comes originally from the sun. And the sun doesn't charge for it. It's when mankind tries to extract it from its storage state that it gets complicated and expensive. The better we get at using the suns energy directly as it comes to us, the better off we will be. Better siting of homes and buildings, better placement of windows, passive collectors, passive storage, realization that we don't need (can't afford) to live in an artificially heated/cooled 70 degree world, etc. seems like the most sustainable approach.

 

[mivey]

Not quite. He got it right. All power comes originally from the sun.

Not quite all but most for sure.

The better we get at using the suns energy directly as it comes to us, the better off we will be. Better siting of homes and buildings, better placement of windows, passive collectors, passive storage, realization that we don't need (can't afford) to live in an artificially heated/cooled 70 degree world, etc.

That would be the best way but our society is very wasteful. The animals live like they did thousands of years ago. If we would do the same we would be in better harmony with the environment. The problem is, it is in the nature of man to change things and try to make them better (a relative term, I know). As long as we live here it will always be that way.

If we did not think our damage to the environment was dangerous to us, we would use our resources as easily and cheaply as we could (and have in the past). That is just the way it is. You will never convince everyone to orient their houses a certain way or to build underground. Once the Joneses have their house oriented a different way, someone else will do the same in order to not be outdone.

You can try to force people to do the right thing but things but it will never be long-lasting until you change the people. People must be led not driven and unfortunately our government tries to force things down peoples throats at times.

Think about what we see in our industry. Many of those who scream "beware the environment" will by-pass the more expensive product that is environmentally friendly and buy the cheaper product. How much waste do we see from people trying to cut corners and costs so they can compete with others doing the same?

I am all for being environmentally friendly but I am also realistic enough to know that people are slow to change and some never will.

 

[xformer]

Lots of good comments here, much of which I agree with. I just took a solar class and learned that problems with solar installations are mostly peoples ignorance.

Ignorance about the purpose of the systems. Most solar systems are not meant to delete a utility bill but to just reduce the cost of the product for the user. With the need for power and few or no new power plants being installed, something has to give. We cant keep connecting loads to grids without increasing the supply.

Man has been polluting the earth since God cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. Nothing is going to change that no matter how Green people want to get.

Solar just seems to be a temporary fix to a permanent problem and with all the road blocks to it like initial expense, roof and solar life miss match, and HOA's and other agencies getting involves, I don't see it as a recommendable fix currently.

 

[arnettda]

What electric bill? If you actually make all the electricity you use you would not have an electric bill.

My POCO charges 32 dollars a month just to have there meter on my house. regardless if you use any electricity or not.

 

[mivey]

My POCO charges 32 dollars a month just to have there meter on my house. regardless if you use any electricity or not.

Then just tell them you want the service disconnected as it is bringing you no value and have a nice steak every month instead!

 

[jmellc]

My best information has been that solar is great for water heating & room heating, if you design a house around the sun's path. I have seen a simple water heater work well. It was built by a bunch of old hippies in Canada, people with no special abilities. Their's was made from a propane tank, drilled & tapped with fittings. Fed with garden hose, plastic pipe to outdoor shower. 1 water source, pleasantly warm, about right for shower.

I agree so far that this application of solar is its best niche. I could foresee huge solar water heaters on rooftops or in rooftop "penthouse" enclosures.