Hard wired smoke ALARMS

[JustWork]

Hello to everyone and thank you in advance for any information. I have a situation with an existing multi family dwelling (now 3 apts) in New Jersey that was an illegal 5 apt set up. The dwelling had no smoke alarms at all. I proposed to install one hard wired smoke ALARM interconnected system with battery back up with all of the apartments and common areas interconnected as requested by the town. The original permit was submitted with 10 smoke alarms some of which are combo units. As the g/c went throught the process of getting all of his required building inspections and me getting mine the request for additional smoke alarms from the officials are now putting me at 15 smoke Alarms including the combo units. I have used Kidde alarms which is good for 18 - 24 interconnected units.
I know the NFPA limits the number of interconnected units to 12 (why im not sure). My question is now how do I address the issue that we will or have exceeded the NFPA requirement? Do I just let it go and if it passes its done(not comfortable thinking that way)? Do I count the combo units as a smoke alarm (I did because it is one)? Shouldn't each apartment be its own system and the common areas its own system with maybe one alarm in each apartment unit located within 10' of bedrooms? What would be some thoughts regarding this situation. Also the only construction that was performed in this dwelling was they removed walls that made up the 5 apartments, not one new wall was constructed. They pretty much had me put a smoke detector in every room (no bath or kitchen)because the officials said they will/can use any room as a bedroom.

 

[infinity]

Hello to everyone and thank you in advance for any information. I have a situation with an existing multi family dwelling (now 3 apts) in New Jersey that was an illegal 5 apt set up. The dwelling had no smoke alarms at all. I proposed to install one hard wired smoke ALARM interconnected system with battery back up with all of the apartments and common areas interconnected as requested by the town. The original permit was submitted with 10 smoke alarms some of which are combo units. As the g/c went throught the process of getting all of his required building inspections and me getting mine the request for additional smoke alarms from the officials are now putting me at 15 smoke Alarms including the combo units. I have used Kidde alarms which is good for 18 - 24 interconnected units.
I know the NFPA limits the number of interconnected units to 12 (why im not sure). My question is now how do I address the issue that we will or have exceeded the NFPA requirement? Do I just let it go and if it passes its done(not comfortable thinking that way)? Do I count the combo units as a smoke alarm (I did because it is one)? Shouldn't each apartment be its own system and the common areas its own system with maybe one alarm in each apartment unit located within 10' of bedrooms? What would be some thoughts regarding this situation. Also the only construction that was performed in this dwelling was they removed walls that made up the 5 apartments, not one new wall was constructed. They pretty much had me put a smoke detector in every room (no bath or kitchen)because the officials said they will/can use any room as a bedroom.

Smoke alarms should not be interconnected from one apartment to another.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

I beleive if you check the installation manual you will find that they are only approved for single family residences this
means they cannot be used in the common areas or connected between units.

 

[goldstar]

Ditto to the two previous answers. You may have to move on to a smoke detection system. But, don't make that decision yourself. Check with the AHJ and make sure whoever designs the system has the qualifications to do so. IMHO, the liability in this specific case may be greater than what the job is worth.

 

[dhalleron]

I believe the limit of 12 is simply because they are not supervised like a system would be. How they arrived at 12 smoke alarms I don't know.

The combo units count as one of the 12 if they have a smoke alarm as part of the combo.

Like the others said, these would probably not be listed for use outside of a single family residence and should not be connected between units. For one thing, if someone burns toast on Sunday morning, the whole building will be evacuated. After this happens a few times, someone will start getting fined and someone will be back there to seperate the interconnected units and install a system properly in the common areas with sounders inside the units.

 

[JustWork]

Understanding what should be.

Understanding what should be.

I understand that under normal new construction the three apartments Should not be all interconnected however prior to doing anything I talked to the town officials and they are the ones that have informed me that they wanted the system to be interconnected. This is why I proposed to do the installation in this manner.

The smoke alarms are listed for ordinary indoor locations of family living units.

I did bring up in fact the burnt toast situation when discussing it with the authority and it was not a concern for them.

I just dont like doing things twice which is why I talked to them prior to submitting my smoke alarm layout and permits for fire/electrical which were approved. We had our electrical and fire inspection which passed by them after I had to add the additional alarms requested by the fire inspector. But after every c/o inspector walked through to do their own inspections they requested for more smoke alarms to be added.

So now I have a passed fire system but i still need to add more alarms which will require(I assume I Know) another application for permit with layouts and the possible rejection due to the request for additional alarms on a system that just in fact passed their in house inspection??? I am really confused on this one as well as frustrated.

 

[curt swartz]

Add me to the list stating not to interconnect the smoke alarms between units. You need to explain to the person requiring this that it's wrong. Take it to their boss if necessary. If they really insist on it being done this way walk away from the job. I can guarantee you are going to get callbacks. You may even get sued if there is a fire in the future and they find the smokes were not installed properly.

I believe the building code states that they are not to be interconnected between units.

 

[curt swartz]

One thing I forgot to ask. How are you powering these units?

 

[cowboyjwc]

You might try getting the opinion of the local fire marshal.

 

[JustWork]

I talked to the head fire subcode official in the town and he was the last person on my end out there to do the inspection which passed. He was also the first guy I talked to at the very beginning that wanted it this way. He is the inspecting official and when i talked to him about installing a complete system he said no need to. He said that he wanted every alarm interconnected and it would be ok that is the only reason why I went and did it the way he requested.

They are being powered (120vac) off of the common house panel

Big lesson learned here on my part but now I need to get through it and need some help.

 

[iwire]

You need to explain to the person requiring this that it's wrong. Take it to their boss if necessary. If they really insist on it being done this way walk away from the job.

Ditto on this.

 

[infinity]

Add me to the list stating not to interconnect the smoke alarms between units. You need to explain to the person requiring this that it's wrong. Take it to their boss if necessary. If they really insist on it being done this way walk away from the job. I can guarantee you are going to get callbacks. You may even get sued if there is a fire in the future and they find the smokes were not installed properly.

I believe the building code states that they are not to be interconnected between units.

I agree. The information that the JustWork received is incorrect. He needs to talk to someone who knows the proper way to install these alarms. If you get no satisfaction on the local level then a call down to Trenton may be in order.

 

[goldstar]

Here's the NJ bulletin on 12 smoke alarms and/or smoke detection systems. Hope this helps :

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/publications/pdf_bulletins/b_08-1.pdf

 

[JustWork]

Thanks Again

Thanks Again

Gold star thank you for the information I did look at this information when I got into the mess. Now that my blood pressure is a little lower one part of the bulletin states

"There are smoke alarms on the market that connect to an A/C power source
which have a wireless transmitter, so that the smoke alarms can be interconnected to
other smoke alarms without running wires between each alarm. These devices meet
the requirements of IRC/2006, Section R313.1 and do not require a variation."

Am I looking to deep here or grabbing for straws when I think I can now exceed the 12 hardwired interconnected alarms by installing two sets of seven alarms and have them interconnected by two wireless alarms??

Tony

 

[RICK NAPIER]

That bulletin 08-1 applies in this situation because this job falls under the rehab code which uses 2006 IBC but I thought it was worth noting that new construction falls under 2009 IBC and low voltage alarm systems are permitted without variations.

 

[goldstar]

but I thought it was worth noting that new construction falls under 2009 IBC and low voltage alarm systems are permitted without variations.

Rick, can you please explain further ? I recently completed a house renovation with a new add-on and the inspector insisted that I not excede 12, 120 vac inter-conected smoke alarms. As it turned out I had to install 13 so he allowed me to install one smoke alarm on the first floor, wired on the same power circuit but not inter-connected with the others.

BTW, I believe it was mentioned here that the carbon monoxide detectors are not required to be inter-connected with the regular smoke alarms and can be "plug-in" units. So, if you're pushing the limit with 12 units, make the CO alarms plug-in.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

The rehab code has not yet been updated and still applies the 2006 IBC. Additions and new buildings fall under the NJ version of the 2009 IBC.

Here is the section of the 2006 IBC that limited you to 110 volt smoke detectors since they were the only ones that worked with the alarm panel removed as is there is no central alarm panel.

R313.1 Smoke detection and notification.

All smoke alarms shall be listed in accordance with UL 217 and installed in accordance with the provisions of this code and the household fire warning equipment provisions of NFPA 72.

Household fire alarm systems installed in accordance with NFPA 72 that include smoke alarms, or a combination of smoke detector and audible notification device installed as required by this section for smoke alarms, shall be permitted. The household fire alarm system shall provide the same level of smoke detection and alarm as required by this section for smoke alarms in the event the fire alarm panel is removed or the system is not connected to a central station.

This was replaced by these sections of the 2009 IBC.

R314.1 Smoke detection and notification. All smoke alarms shall be listed in accordance with UL 217 and installed in accordance with the provisions of this code and the household fire warning equipment provisions of NFPA 72.

R314.2 Smoke detection systems. Household fire alarm systems installed in accordance with NFPA 72 that include smoke alarms, or a combination of smoke detector and audible notification device installed as required by this section for smoke alarms, shall be permitted. The household fire alarm system shall provide the same level of smoke detection and alarm as required by this section for smoke alarms. Where a household fire warning system is installed using a combination of smoke detector and audible notification device(s), it shall become a permanent fixture of the occupancy and owned by the homeowner. The system shall be monitored by an approved supervising station and be maintained in accordance with NFPA 72.

Exception: Where smoke alarms are provided meeting the requirements of Section R314.4.

The exception for R314.4 deals with traditional 110 volt detectors.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

To address 13 detectors on one circuit it should not have been permited. A variation shpuld been applied for to install a different system. Note the NFPA 72 limit is 12 smoke detectors and a total 18 detection devices. That means you can have 12 smoke detectors and six CO detectors on the same circuit. If they are combination units they only count once.

 

[infinity]

Where does it say that you should be interconnecting these alarms together if they're in different dwelling units?

 

[RICK NAPIER]

I am sorry my answer was not to the original post but to goldstar's question to me. I stick to my original response that they should not be interconnected.