grounding electrode conductor

[Smart $]

250.68(C) of the 2011 cycle is a permissive rule and does not mandate anything. It gives permission to use the first five feet of water pipe as a conductor to splice to as well as the metal of a building that meets the requirements. What is does not do in mandate anything.

I would agree with you except for it is preceded by a general rule which mandates installation per (A) through (C). The general requirement can be interpreted as to mandate (C)'s permissions. In other words, what is permitted in (C) must be done. Granted it is a strict rather than loose interpretation... but that was my point.. as it is coupled with the issue being discussed.

EDIT to add: here's an example of the grammatics...

Parents tell their child the following:
You must only play with children we specify. You are permitted to play with children that live in the neighborhood.

Also see 250.53(D)(2) where permission is given to bond a rod to the grounding electrode conductor. I suppose this could be done with a split bolt.

What does this have to do with the issue??? We are discussing whether or not it is the intent of the code to run continuous bonding jumpers and irreversibly splice versus using reversible splice methods.

Additionally, just because a rule uses the word "bond" or one of its grammatical forms, does not mean the bonding is to be done with a bonding jumper. A GEC, as must an EGC be bonded at any required connection point.

 

[jwelectric]

I would agree with you except for it is preceded by a general rule which mandates installation per (A) through (C). The general requirement can be interpreted as to mandate (C)'s permissions. In other words, what is permitted in (C) must be done. Granted it is a strict rather than loose interpretation... but that was my point.. as it is coupled with the issue being discussed.

Using your analogy the grounding electrode conductor would be required to land either on the water pipe or metal of a building and all bonding jumpers land on one or the other. In other words where there was only a concrete encased electrode present one couldn?t use it because the grounding electrode conductor is required to land either on a metal water pipe or the metal of a building and the concrete encase electrode be bonded from one or the other.
What about buildings that have no metal water pipe or metal parts? Where will all the bonding take place in these?

Parents tell their child the following:

You must only play with children we specify. You are permitted to play with children that live in the neighborhood.

What you are telling the child is that he can play with Tommy or Jane or not play with anyone and play by their self. You gave the child permission.

What does this have to do with the issue??? We are discussing whether or not it is the intent of the code to run continuous bonding jumpers and irreversibly splice versus using reversible splice methods.

It shows that the conductor from the rod does not have to hit the metal water pipe but can instead be terminated to the grounding electrode conductor which according to your analogy would be a violation. You are saying the code contradicts itself. Remember it was you that said:

And in less than 2 months in CO the 2011 NEC will be implemented and that opnion will be even stronger with the addition of 250.68(C). As I interpret it, bonding jumpers from rod to rod are no longer permitted. Bonding jumpers can only be connected to water pipe and (or?) structural steel electrodes (and a GEC must be connected to each in order to do so ).

250.64(F)(3) Allows the grounding electrode conductor to land on a busbar and all bonding conductors to other electrodes be bonded to this busbar which again goes against your analogy of either the water pipe or steel of the building in 250.68(C)

Additionally, just because a rule uses the word "bond" or one of its grammatical forms, does not mean the bonding is to be done with a bonding jumper. A GEC, as must an EGC be bonded at any required connection point.

This is true. In 250.28(B) the bonding jumper can be a screw that is green in color.

 

[Smart $]

250.68(C) of the 2011 cycle is a permissive rule and does not mandate anything. It gives permission to use the first five feet of water pipe as a conductor to splice to as well as the metal of a building that meets the requirements. What is does not do in mandate anything.

I would agree with you except for it is preceded by a general rule which mandates installation per (A) through (C). The general requirement can be interpreted as to mandate (C)'s permissions. In other words, what is permitted in (C) must be done. Granted it is a strict rather than loose interpretation... but that was my point.. as it is coupled with the issue being discussed.

Using your analogy the grounding electrode conductor would be required to land either on the water pipe or metal of a building and all bonding jumpers land on one or the other. In other words where there was only a concrete encased electrode present one couldn?t use it because the grounding electrode conductor is required to land either on a metal water pipe or the metal of a building and the concrete encase electrode be bonded from one or the other.
What about buildings that have no metal water pipe or metal parts? Where will all the bonding take place in these?

The restriction, as it can be interpretted, is that one end of any electrode bonding jumper must be bonded to either a metal water pipe electrode within 5' of building entrance or a qualifying structural metal electrode.

There is no restriction from running a GEC to any electrode. Also, one GEC can connect (bond) an unlimited number of electrodes. Additionally, there is no restriction on the number of GEC's that can exist. One GEC may even connect to another.

In effect the rule limits the connection of one end of bonding jumpers to the two "most-preferred" electrodes and disallows cascaded-by-dual-connection electrode bonding jumpers. The bonding jumper depicted in the illustration of post#3 is/will be a violation under an unammended NEC 2011.

Parents tell their child the following:
You must only play with children we specify. You are permitted to play with children that live in the neighborhood.

What you are telling the child is that he can play with Tommy or Jane or not play with anyone and play by their self. You gave the child permission.

Not exactly. The child can play with Tommy or Jane but only if they live in the neighborhood. Not playing at all is allowed as is playing with their self (but only if the child lives in the neighborhood ).

What does this have to do with the issue??? We are discussing whether or not it is the intent of the code to run continuous bonding jumpers and irreversibly splice versus using reversible splice methods.

It shows that the conductor from the rod does not have to hit the metal water pipe but can instead be terminated to the grounding electrode conductor which according to your analogy would be a violation. You are saying the code contradicts itself. ?

Yes, 250.53(D)(2) gives permission to bond a rod electrode to a GEC? but it does not say to do so with a bonding jumper. That is why I said just because a rule uses the word ?bond? or forms thereof, does not mean the bonding is to take place with a bonding jumper. In the case mentioned the bonding of the rod to the GEC takes place using another GEC? but it is not the same GEC that is being bonded to? but both being GEC?s, the GEC-to-GEC connection must be of an irreversible type.

250.64(F)(3) Allows the grounding electrode conductor to land on a busbar and all bonding conductors to other electrodes be bonded to this busbar which again goes against your analogy of either the water pipe or steel of the building in 250.68(C)

Conductors between the busbar and electrodes are GEC's... not bonding jumpers.

 

[Smart $]

...

Conductors between the busbar and electrodes are GEC's... not bonding jumpers.

Oops. I suppose I should read references be posting responses. 250.64(F)(3) does present a conflict in terminology... but I've always considered the bonding jumpers referred to in 250.64(F)(3) as GEC's.

 

[jwelectric]

I see your confusion is you think any conductor that lands on an electrode is a grounding electrode conductor no matter where the other end lands.

A grounding electrode conductor originates in the service equipment and doesn?t have to land on a grounding electrode.

 

[Smart $]

I see your confusion is you think any conductor that lands on an electrode is a grounding electrode conductor no matter where the other end lands.

No, I do not think that...

A grounding electrode conductor originates in the service equipment and doesn?t have to land on a grounding electrode.

I agree a GEC originates at the service equipment. I am not certain it has to land on an electrode, but I have always installed a GEC such that it does.

Previously, other electrodes could be bonded to the GEC (i.e with reversible connection) using bonding jumpers... but 250.68 general coupled with 250.68(C) seems to not permit that anymore and the connection will have to be irreversible... thus making them GEC's and not bonding jumpers.

If someone doesn't do it first, I'll look up the reports for 250.68(C) later...

 

[jwelectric]

5-212 Log #4013 NEC-P05 Final Action: Accept in Principle
(250.68(C) (New) )
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Paul Dobrowsky, Holley, NY
Recommendation: Add new text as follows:
(C)(C) Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper Connection
Locations
Grounding electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted to be connected to the following locations and be used to extend the connection to an electrode(s):
(1) Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.
Exception: In industrial, commercial, and institutional buildings or structures where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation, interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system, provided that the entire length, other than short sections passing perpendicularly through walls, floors, or ceilings, of the interior metal water pipe that is being used for the conductor is exposed.
(2) The structural frame of a building as follows:
(a) Connecting the structural metal frame to the reinforcing bars of a concrete-encased electrode as provided in 250.52(A)(3) or ground ring as provided in 250.52(A)(4)
(b) Bonding the structural metal frame to one or more of the grounding electrodes as defined in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(7) that comply with 250.56
(c) Other approved means of establishing a connection to earth
Substantiation: This text is being proposed as being deleted from 250.52 and relocated here because items that are not in the earth should not be considered to be electrodes but can be used as a conductor to create a path to the electrode.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Revise text to read as follows:
(C) Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper Connection Locations.
Grounding electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted to be connected at to the following locations and be used to extend the connection to an electrode(s):
(1) Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted to not be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.
Exception: In industrial, commercial, and institutional buildings or structures where if conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation, interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted as a bonding conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system, or as a grounding electrode conductor, provided that the entire length, other than short sections passing perpendicularly through walls, floors, or ceilings, of the interior metal water pipe that is being used for the conductor is exposed.
(2) The structural frame of a building as follows:
(a) By connecting the structural metal frame to the reinforcing bars of a concrete-encased electrode as provided in 250.52(A)(3) or ground ring as provided in 250.52(A)(4)
(b) By bonding the structural metal frame to one or more of the grounding electrodes as defined in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(7) that comply with 250.56
(c) By other approved means of establishing a connection to earth
Revise the first sentence of Section 250.68(C) to read:
The connection of a grounding electrode conductor at the service, at each building or structure where supplied by a feeder(s) or branch circuit(s), or at a separately derived system and associated bonding jumper(s) shall be made as specified in 250.68(A) and through (BC).
Panel Statement: Editorial revisions have been made for clarity. The first sentence of Section 250.68 has been revised to reflect the added subdivision.
See the panel action and statement on Proposal 5-170.
Number Eligible to Vote: 16
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 16

5-170
Panel Statement: The panel concludes that the location recommended for the new 250.53(D)(3) is more appropriately located in new 250.68(C). See the panel actions on Proposal 5-212. Editorial revisions to the remaining part of the recommendation have been made for clarity.

All that 250.68(C) does is to clarify that the first five feet of metal water pipe that enters a building is not electrode. All electrodes must be in contact with earth in order to be an electrode. Any part that is not in contact with earth is nothing more than a conductor.

 

[Smart $]

...All that 250.68(C) does is to clarify that the first five feet of metal water pipe that enters a building is not electrode. All electrodes must be in contact with earth in order to be an electrode. Any part that is not in contact with earth is nothing more than a conductor.

Well, that was the intent... but just plugging it into the section changes the meaning. I've often said writing of these new additions need to be more literal and less ulterior. I sure someone could think of a better way to write up what was actually intended.

 

[K8MHZ]

I tried to read through this entire thread. My head is spinning and vertigo set in when I got this far:

Not exactly. The child can play with Tommy or Jane but only if they live in the neighborhood. Not playing at all is allowed as is playing with their self (but only if the child lives in the neighborhood ).

OK, so since it's likely that violation of the above would result in grounding, and if said grounding was put forth by the child's father who worked on a train collecting tickets from seated passengers, wouldn't said grounding be a result of a grounding conductor?

 

[K8MHZ]

I would like to add that reading this thread reminds me of my solar class.

The book spends 2 chapters (so far) using all sorts of engineering lingo and math to tell us what can be summed up thusly:

Solar panels work the best when pointed directly at the sun, on a sunny day, with no obstructions.

 

[Smart $]

...OK, so since it's likely that violation of the above would result in grounding, and if said grounding was put forth by the child's father who worked on a train collecting tickets from seated passengers, wouldn't said grounding be a result of a grounding conductor?

Yes it would... and the grounding occurs when the rules are broken.

 

[Finite10]

250.53,C "Grounding Electrode System Installation", "Bonding Jumper"; refers me to 250.70 for manner of connection. “Methods of Grounding and Bonding Conductor Connection to Electrodes"; That lets me connect using listed pressure connectors, lugs, and clamps.

 

[Smart $]

250.53,C "Grounding Electrode System Installation", "Bonding Jumper"; refers me to 250.70 for manner of connection. ?Methods of Grounding and Bonding Conductor Connection to Electrodes"; That lets me connect using listed pressure connectors, lugs, and clamps.

The issue being discussed was never about the means of connecting a bonding jumper to an electrode...

 

[Finite10]

The issue being discussed was never about the means of connecting a bonding jumper to an electrode...

NEC states the grounding electrode conductor must be a continuous unbroken conductor unless assembled with a non reversable crimp. At what point does this grounding electrode conductor end?
-OP

The gec ends at the point of attachment to the first grounding electrode. The jumpers between electrodes are called bonding jumpers.
-Dennis Alwon

Here's a graphic to outline what Dennis said. The GEC ends at the rod. The conductor to the next rod is the bonding jumper. This would apply to all grounding electrodes.
-Infinity

I was under impression that the conductor between the rods or rod and metal pipe/other building grounding system is still called grounding electrode conductor?
-anbm

Nope, the GEC ends at the electrode. The connection between two electrodes is made by a bonding jumper and therefore does not have to be continuous or irreversibly spliced.
-Infinity

 

[Smart $]

NEC states the grounding electrode conductor must be a continuous unbroken conductor unless assembled with a non reversable crimp. At what point does this grounding electrode conductor end?
-OP

The gec ends at the point of attachment to the first grounding electrode. The jumpers between electrodes are called bonding jumpers.
-Dennis Alwon

Here's a graphic to outline what Dennis said. The GEC ends at the rod. The conductor to the next rod is the bonding jumper. This would apply to all grounding electrodes.
-Infinity

I was under impression that the conductor between the rods or rod and metal pipe/other building grounding system is still called grounding electrode conductor?
-anbm

Nope, the GEC ends at the electrode. The connection between two electrodes is made by a bonding jumper and therefore does not have to be continuous or irreversibly spliced.
-Infinity

I still don't see anything where connection of a bonding jumper to an electrode is at issue. What I see at issue would be the connection of a GEC to the first electrode is where the GEC ends. If that is actually true, then there is no such thing as the first electrode... it would be the electrode. If GEC connection to the first electrode is made via a pass-through connection or there is an exothermic or irreversible three-way splice made anywhere along the GEC, the GEC can connect to two or more electrodes. So the issue is more about how the GEC connects to an electrode rather than a bonding jumper.